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[microphone droans]

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[static crackles]

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[machine clicking]

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[Dee] Dungeons & Dragons
is a game about imagination

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00:00:21,282 --> 00:00:24,807
but imagination
needs something to work off of.

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Dungeons & Dragons
is a fantasy role playing game

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and the artwork
is fantastical artwork.

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[Diterlizzi] The art and the
game, you can't separate it.

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You have to look at both
components working together.

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There is suddenly
a beholder in front of you.

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"Well, what's a beholder?"
"It's a really angry onion

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with eyes and teeth
and 'tentacle-y' stalks."

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And then you show them
this picture.

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You cannot have
Dungeons & Dragons

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without the artwork
that supplements it.

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The lack of defined border
to Dungeons & Dragons

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00:00:58,188 --> 00:01:01,365
and the art form that then
kind of goes along with it,

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00:01:01,409 --> 00:01:04,455
allows for
an incredible creative

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outpouring and expression.

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00:01:06,283 --> 00:01:08,242
[Prescott]
You're developing

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and being part of
a whole 'nother world.

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[Quinn]
Heroines and villains

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and dragons and all these

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wild fantastic animals.

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I know my mother looked at me
a couple of times like,

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"You're doing what?"

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D&Dwas a perfect fit for me.

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I got to not only draw it,
but make stories about it

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and scare my friends.

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Monsters and fantasy
fused with gaming?

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It's just--
How could you resist?

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Why wouldn't anybody
be in love with this stuff.

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D&Dart is cool.
[laughs]

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It's stuff that takes you
into a different world

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into a different idea
of, like, how to think.

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[man]
It empowered my imagination.

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All the modules,
all the adventures.

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Everything was important,
but the art

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was the reason
why I bought a book.

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When TSR
and Dungeons & Dragons

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came about, yeah,
you'd go to the mall--

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00:02:00,990 --> 00:02:03,427
Waldenbooks
or something like that,

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00:02:03,471 --> 00:02:05,777
and you'd go
into the gaming department

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00:02:05,821 --> 00:02:09,303
and, yeah, you'd just be like,
"Wow look at this new book.

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This is--
The cover is awesome."

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You know, that artwork
just filled part of that void

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that wasn't getting filled
anywhere else.

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It was just incredible.

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Every time
I would pick something up,

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I wanted to be a part
of the game

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through the artwork.
What TSR and their artists

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were able to do is epic.

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You know, it's funny,
you walk into a bookstore now

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or you walk into--
really any store now,

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and you're gonna see
fantasy art.

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You're gonna see a dragon
or a monster or something.

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They're everywhere.
D&D art was kind of

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the precursor
to all that stuff.

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It laid the foundation
for that all to build on.

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[Jaquays] TheDungeons and
Dragon brand actually went on

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to define an entire genre
when art should look like.

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[Schindehette]
Here was this cohesive world

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that was envisioned
by all these amazing artists

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that creates a groundwork for

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where we can
grow our stories from.

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Where we can grow
our myths from.

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Where we can
grow our heroes from.

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[LaForce] These images are more
than just a product.

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They're something beyond that.

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[exciting music]

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♪

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When my brother Dave
was going to his gaming club

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to play, you know,
the latest tank battles game,

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Dungeons & Dragons showed up
and they started playing this

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and he came back
and told me about it

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and just the idea of it
thrilled me.

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I can still remember
riding with my mom

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in the car to go pick Dave up
from his gaming group

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and walking into their game room
and seeing for the first time

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a table with people
sitting around it

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with sheets in front of them
with numbers on them

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and funny dice
and a game master screen

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and a guy sitting behind that
running the game.

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00:03:56,584 --> 00:03:59,456
Dungeons & Dragonswas maybe
six months old at the time.

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In the beginning
we were asking miniaturists--

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because that's what
this game was aimed at

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00:04:06,028 --> 00:04:09,292
and people with a sense
of playing with a figure

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00:04:09,336 --> 00:04:11,076
on the table etc,

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We were asking them
to play in their minds.

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Up until that point there was
absolutely nothing like it.

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00:04:17,039 --> 00:04:19,520
We had board games,
but there'd been nothing

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that was all about
telling these stories,

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00:04:22,697 --> 00:04:26,091
these fantasy adventure stories
that we had in our heads.

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00:04:26,135 --> 00:04:29,312
It came first.
It was the first to tie

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00:04:29,356 --> 00:04:34,535
rules and interactive play
to dragons and sorcery.

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00:04:34,578 --> 00:04:38,321
Gary Gygax added magic and
something different happened.

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00:04:38,365 --> 00:04:43,021
It opened up windows
to creativity that previously,

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00:04:43,065 --> 00:04:45,328
you know, they weren't windows
waiting to be opened,

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00:04:45,372 --> 00:04:48,157
they were blank walls.
He knocked windows into them.

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Playing role playing games is--
it's almost like

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making a movie together.
Everybody's contributing,

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00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,385
whether it's the character
or what path they take.

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So, I feel the art is just
one more component of that.

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[Metheney] The artwork
forDungeons & Dragons

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00:05:03,694 --> 00:05:05,392
specifically in
theMonster Manual

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00:05:05,435 --> 00:05:09,221
and these types of things
offers a concise look

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00:05:09,265 --> 00:05:13,356
at what to expect
from your foe or your friend

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00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,925
and that unites players
in a way that, I think,

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makes it a shared experience.

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[Gallegos] InD&D you're all
at a table together.

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You really do have to
understand what you're seeing

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00:05:23,758 --> 00:05:25,673
because you're all
experiencing at the same time.

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You have to be seeing
the same thing actually

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00:05:27,065 --> 00:05:28,545
to even communicate
about the game properly.

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Having a center rail
so that everybody

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at least begins
from the same point.

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00:05:33,811 --> 00:05:39,382
[Pages] As a DM you can go on
for literally an hour

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describing one,
like, epic monster

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00:05:43,255 --> 00:05:45,867
that you're about to fight
and yet seven people will

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have seven different ideas
of what's going on.

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00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,220
And you can try
as hard as you can

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00:05:51,263 --> 00:05:55,616
to, like, put the exact idea
of what you're planning

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00:05:55,659 --> 00:05:58,140
to put in front of your players,

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00:05:58,183 --> 00:06:01,926
but sometimes it does take
just like holding something up

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and showing,
like, the magnitude of it.

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00:06:06,061 --> 00:06:08,585
If the DM says,
"Well, you see a monster

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00:06:08,629 --> 00:06:12,633
and, uh, he's got, uh,
ten horns around his head."

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"Well, do they go this way
or do they go this way?"

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00:06:15,810 --> 00:06:17,551
It might not matter,
but it might impact

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00:06:17,594 --> 00:06:20,858
your decision making
in which spell you choose

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00:06:20,902 --> 00:06:23,426
or which weapon
or which side of the beast

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you want to attack him from.

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Sure, there's the--
the technical aspect of it,

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but for me, personally,
as somebody who's a gamer,

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00:06:30,868 --> 00:06:33,610
really good D&Dart sets a mood.

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It gives you ideas
as a player

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00:06:36,134 --> 00:06:38,310
that you might not
have had otherwise.

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[Hensley] It's important
because without it,

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the narrative
is less interesting perhaps.

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00:06:44,534 --> 00:06:47,319
I think our imagination
is always going to be,

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00:06:47,363 --> 00:06:49,452
you know, compelling,

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00:06:49,496 --> 00:06:51,149
but this makes it
so much more rich.

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[Gallegos] You know,
none of the scenes that

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any of the illustrators do

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00:06:54,326 --> 00:06:57,068
are necessarily the ones
that you're experiencing,

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00:06:57,112 --> 00:06:59,549
but they are giving you
the tools--

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00:06:59,593 --> 00:07:01,377
the mental tools,
the imaginative tools,

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00:07:01,421 --> 00:07:03,727
that you need to populate
your own experience

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00:07:03,771 --> 00:07:04,902
in your own world.

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00:07:04,946 --> 00:07:07,165
I have an idea
of the character

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00:07:07,209 --> 00:07:08,602
that I want to play,

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00:07:08,645 --> 00:07:11,518
but it's the art
that fine tunes it

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and expounds my imagination

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00:07:14,651 --> 00:07:17,567
to make me go even deeper
into that character.

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00:07:17,611 --> 00:07:21,136
The artist can come in
and do that whole

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one picture is worth
a thousand words

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00:07:23,704 --> 00:07:26,489
and show so much more

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00:07:26,533 --> 00:07:30,972
in a three-by-four-inch picture
on a page

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00:07:31,015 --> 00:07:35,280
then the designer can do
in two pages of description.

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00:07:35,324 --> 00:07:38,458
It shows you where you are.
It shows you what you're doing.

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00:07:38,501 --> 00:07:40,111
It shows you
who you're fighting,

162
00:07:40,155 --> 00:07:42,940
where you're fighting,
what you're fighting.

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00:07:42,984 --> 00:07:44,942
The landscape,
the time of day,

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the seasons where you're at,
the land.

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00:07:47,075 --> 00:07:50,121
You need visuals.
You need pictures

166
00:07:50,165 --> 00:07:52,907
to be able to go,
"You open up the door

167
00:07:52,950 --> 00:07:56,476
and this is what's inside.
Your friend has something

168
00:07:56,519 --> 00:08:00,131
coating their armor and it's
dissolving their insides.

169
00:08:00,175 --> 00:08:01,524
This is what it looks like."

170
00:08:01,568 --> 00:08:04,222
My goal was always to have
art in the books

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00:08:04,266 --> 00:08:05,789
that people would grab
and flip up to go,

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00:08:05,833 --> 00:08:07,791
"And thisis where you are."

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And people would go,
"Holy crap."

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Great D&Dart is narrative.

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And what that means is
it tells a story

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all within a single frame.

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It might be
to try and, uh...

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give some narrative
about a character.

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Like, for example,
a warrior who might have

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trophy skulls hanging
from his belt or something.

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So that there's something
that you can look at

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that character and see
that there's a history there.

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Then there's also ones
that hopefully are more

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00:08:39,562 --> 00:08:42,173
entertainment value.
That often you will find

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00:08:42,217 --> 00:08:45,002
on the cover of a module
where you see

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the conflict in progress.

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I wanted to show things
going good and bad

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at the same time.
It's just how it goes

189
00:08:51,313 --> 00:08:53,097
when you're playingD&D.

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00:08:53,141 --> 00:08:55,230
Someone might be having
a really hard time over here,

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00:08:55,273 --> 00:08:57,841
but your buddy's picking up
the slack.

192
00:08:57,885 --> 00:09:00,104
You might win, you might lose.

193
00:09:00,148 --> 00:09:03,325
They wanted this epic scene
of these adventurers

194
00:09:03,368 --> 00:09:07,416
lowering themselves down
into this stone pit.

195
00:09:07,459 --> 00:09:10,593
I think the art direction
for this didn't specify

196
00:09:10,637 --> 00:09:13,161
too much other than
there's goblins at the bottom

197
00:09:13,204 --> 00:09:15,119
and a fighter and a sorcerer.

198
00:09:15,163 --> 00:09:17,600
Like they didn't say
to add these disgusting,

199
00:09:17,644 --> 00:09:20,951
giant centipedes coming out
of the gargoyle mouths,

200
00:09:20,995 --> 00:09:22,649
but I thought
that would just be fun.

201
00:09:22,692 --> 00:09:25,434
Like, "Let's ratchet it up
just a little bit more."

202
00:09:25,477 --> 00:09:27,436
It's not enough
that this is going on.

203
00:09:27,479 --> 00:09:31,005
That's the core
of what we as fantasy artists,

204
00:09:31,048 --> 00:09:33,660
I think, is... is so important

205
00:09:33,703 --> 00:09:38,447
is that we give
the viewers these options.

206
00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:40,928
These Choose-Your-Own-Adventure
images.

207
00:09:40,971 --> 00:09:44,932
The art, especially
in those, like, smaller scenes,

208
00:09:44,975 --> 00:09:46,803
give you the sense
that there is something

209
00:09:46,847 --> 00:09:48,675
bigger happening.

210
00:09:48,718 --> 00:09:51,155
That this is a moment
in time that you're capturing

211
00:09:51,199 --> 00:09:53,462
in the lives
of these characters,

212
00:09:53,505 --> 00:09:55,507
but there's always
little bits and pieces

213
00:09:55,551 --> 00:09:58,728
that show that there is stuff
that's going on

214
00:09:58,772 --> 00:10:01,731
around them, before them,
after them.

215
00:10:01,775 --> 00:10:06,301
That there is a bigger world
that you can find yourself in.

216
00:10:06,344 --> 00:10:11,654
For me it's that moment before
things happen.

217
00:10:11,698 --> 00:10:16,616
It's that moment of time when
things could go either way.

218
00:10:16,659 --> 00:10:18,530
So everything
is like this boulder

219
00:10:18,574 --> 00:10:21,621
sitting on the top of a hill
ready to be pushed off.

220
00:10:21,664 --> 00:10:22,883
That's kind of what
Dungeons & Dragonsis about.

221
00:10:22,926 --> 00:10:24,145
It's about reading into things

222
00:10:24,188 --> 00:10:26,190
and figuring out
the story for yourself.

223
00:10:26,234 --> 00:10:30,194
[Diterlizzi] It's not relaying
a story that's already done

224
00:10:30,238 --> 00:10:32,240
and telling you,
"Well, this happened

225
00:10:32,283 --> 00:10:33,807
and then this happened
and then this happened.

226
00:10:33,850 --> 00:10:34,982
Here's the scene
where it happened."

227
00:10:35,025 --> 00:10:38,463
It's saying, "This happens...

228
00:10:38,507 --> 00:10:40,509
now what are you
going to do about it?"

229
00:10:40,552 --> 00:10:44,687
When there's action,
there's not much emotion

230
00:10:44,731 --> 00:10:46,907
'cause action
is something that happens.

231
00:10:46,950 --> 00:10:49,039
It's very spontaneous.
There's no time for thinking.

232
00:10:49,083 --> 00:10:53,435
You got to react or die or win.
One or the other.

233
00:10:53,478 --> 00:10:57,004
It's before an action or after
an action where emotion is.

234
00:10:57,047 --> 00:10:59,267
And it's like--
there's a painting called

235
00:10:59,310 --> 00:11:01,008
Avalyne the Life Giver.

236
00:11:01,051 --> 00:11:03,706
[Lockwood] In the foreground,
it's a snowy scene

237
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:06,013
and there's a tree,
and at the base of the tree

238
00:11:06,056 --> 00:11:08,929
there is a fighter who's been
laid out, clubbed.

239
00:11:08,972 --> 00:11:11,758
And there's a cleric
preparing to heal him

240
00:11:11,801 --> 00:11:13,847
and then you see footprints
off over the hill

241
00:11:13,890 --> 00:11:16,284
and in the distant treeline
there's a giant

242
00:11:16,327 --> 00:11:18,852
towering above it with
his club over his shoulder.

243
00:11:18,895 --> 00:11:20,680
And the storytelling
in that is so...

244
00:11:20,723 --> 00:11:22,725
epic and intimate
at the same time.

245
00:11:22,769 --> 00:11:25,162
My involvement in games
right now is with

246
00:11:25,206 --> 00:11:28,383
the retro gaming community.
So we're talking with people

247
00:11:28,426 --> 00:11:33,257
who are playing games as
they were played in 1978, 1979.

248
00:11:33,301 --> 00:11:37,218
So they're looking to recreate
that first love experience.

249
00:11:37,261 --> 00:11:41,439
And if you can go back
in time and find an image...

250
00:11:41,483 --> 00:11:44,921
a good image,
that really tells that story

251
00:11:44,965 --> 00:11:48,533
about that first love and
that is that Trampier piece.

252
00:11:48,577 --> 00:11:50,535
[Taylor] When you go
First Edition Dungeons & Dragons

253
00:11:50,579 --> 00:11:52,886
Players Handbook,
he showed you D&D.

254
00:11:52,929 --> 00:11:56,324
I think the reason
why it's effective

255
00:11:56,367 --> 00:11:58,543
is because
this is where I wanna go.

256
00:11:58,587 --> 00:12:00,720
You know,
I want to see this.

257
00:12:00,763 --> 00:12:03,113
-I want to steal this jewel.
-[laughter]

258
00:12:03,157 --> 00:12:05,725
I think,
"What happened in that room?"

259
00:12:05,768 --> 00:12:07,639
Like,
"What did those people kill?

260
00:12:07,683 --> 00:12:10,077
What is that on the altar?
Why is that on the altar?

261
00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,818
Where did they come from?
Where are they going?

262
00:12:11,861 --> 00:12:14,298
What happens when
they take the eyeball out?"

263
00:12:14,342 --> 00:12:18,346
I think that cover
has the most story

264
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:20,478
wrapped up
in that little picture.

265
00:12:20,522 --> 00:12:24,613
♪

266
00:12:24,656 --> 00:12:27,616
I think that
D&Dart opened up a door

267
00:12:27,659 --> 00:12:29,357
that wasn't
necessarily there before.

268
00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,402
I mean, sure, you had
Frazetta, you had N.C. Wyeth,

269
00:12:31,446 --> 00:12:33,970
you had a few notable standouts,
but, um...

270
00:12:34,014 --> 00:12:37,757
you really didn't have
that full genre yet.

271
00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,455
Obviously, you know,
imaginative imagery

272
00:12:40,498 --> 00:12:43,458
has been prevalent in art
as long as there's been art.

273
00:12:43,501 --> 00:12:45,808
There there's never
not been a time of fantasy.

274
00:12:45,852 --> 00:12:48,811
It just have had a different--
a different face over the years.

275
00:12:48,855 --> 00:12:52,075
The fantasy art
that we know of today,

276
00:12:52,119 --> 00:12:54,774
as Contemporary Fantasy Art,
goes back to

277
00:12:54,817 --> 00:12:57,341
the Medieval
Renaissance period.

278
00:12:57,385 --> 00:13:00,344
The Baroque Era
of art where you have

279
00:13:00,388 --> 00:13:02,825
visual representations
of good versus evil.

280
00:13:02,869 --> 00:13:05,262
Where there's little demons
creeping out

281
00:13:05,306 --> 00:13:08,135
under the bed next to the woman
who's giving birth

282
00:13:08,178 --> 00:13:11,747
to a demon baby or, uh,
you know, a nobleman

283
00:13:11,791 --> 00:13:13,488
who's slaying a dragon.

284
00:13:13,531 --> 00:13:16,839
It's an illustrator
producing a product for a client

285
00:13:16,883 --> 00:13:20,538
to exact an emotional response
from the audience.

286
00:13:20,582 --> 00:13:22,018
It's all fantasy art.

287
00:13:22,062 --> 00:13:25,674
When we talk about kind of
Contemporary Fantasy

288
00:13:25,717 --> 00:13:28,808
or Imaginative Art
really we're kind of starting

289
00:13:28,851 --> 00:13:32,724
late 1800's moving through
the 19th century

290
00:13:32,768 --> 00:13:35,205
with things like the Romantics,
the Pre-Raphaelites,

291
00:13:35,249 --> 00:13:38,382
some of the Victorian artists,
the Edwardians,

292
00:13:38,426 --> 00:13:41,690
and then really you get
a real flowering

293
00:13:41,733 --> 00:13:44,867
of illustration
right around and shortly after

294
00:13:44,911 --> 00:13:47,783
the turn of the century
which is often known

295
00:13:47,827 --> 00:13:49,611
as the Golden Age
of Illustration.

296
00:13:49,654 --> 00:13:53,658
It's the artists like
Arthur Rackham, Edmund Dulac,

297
00:13:53,702 --> 00:13:56,879
N.C. Wyeth.
World War I.

298
00:13:56,923 --> 00:13:59,360
That's kind of the beginning
of the decline

299
00:13:59,403 --> 00:14:01,362
of the Golden Age
of Illustration.

300
00:14:01,405 --> 00:14:03,886
Particularly imaginative
illustration because

301
00:14:03,930 --> 00:14:06,846
after World War I
the public largely lost

302
00:14:06,889 --> 00:14:10,762
its appetite for light-hearted
fantasy sorts of things.

303
00:14:10,806 --> 00:14:14,679
So at that point,
that tradition kind of stalls

304
00:14:14,723 --> 00:14:17,204
and Frazetta
picks it back up again.

305
00:14:17,247 --> 00:14:21,556
Frazetta's first Conancovers
came out and I saw those

306
00:14:21,599 --> 00:14:25,908
and that was an epiphany moment.
It's...

307
00:14:25,952 --> 00:14:29,912
I thought, "That's it.
That's what I'm trying to find."

308
00:14:29,956 --> 00:14:33,046
[Phoenix] Conan,
giant snake coming in

309
00:14:33,089 --> 00:14:34,874
from between his legs
looking at him.

310
00:14:34,917 --> 00:14:37,789
Conan,
on top of a mountain of skulls,

311
00:14:37,833 --> 00:14:41,358
a woman in a slave dress
wrapped around his leg.

312
00:14:41,402 --> 00:14:44,405
Conan--[laughs]
and friends,

313
00:14:44,448 --> 00:14:48,017
in that big battle
with all of the dead people

314
00:14:48,061 --> 00:14:49,976
underneath him
and he's got, I think,

315
00:14:50,019 --> 00:14:51,760
a sword or axe or something

316
00:14:51,803 --> 00:14:54,894
and he's raising it like this
and there's lightning.

317
00:14:54,937 --> 00:14:58,114
Frank's greatest strength
is his ability to be dynamic.

318
00:14:58,158 --> 00:15:02,510
To produce movement and energy
and suppressed energy

319
00:15:02,553 --> 00:15:06,209
and potential energy.
It just put his paintings

320
00:15:06,253 --> 00:15:09,778
on an entirely different
kind of category

321
00:15:09,821 --> 00:15:12,389
from what people
were used to seeing.

322
00:15:12,433 --> 00:15:15,566
And it had a huge impact
on the public,

323
00:15:15,610 --> 00:15:19,005
on the marketplace,
on publishers,

324
00:15:19,048 --> 00:15:23,357
and on all of the artists
who came after Frank.

325
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,838
[LaForce] Here is a piece of
mine that I did to get the job

326
00:15:26,882 --> 00:15:30,364
at TSR basically
and it was my attempt

327
00:15:30,407 --> 00:15:32,496
at doing a Frank Frazetta piece.

328
00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:36,109
I thought I could draw
like Frank Frazetta at age 19.

329
00:15:36,152 --> 00:15:41,201
-Eat your hearts out.
-Prior to Dungeons & Dragons,

330
00:15:41,244 --> 00:15:45,379
fantasy was almost
a non-element.

331
00:15:45,422 --> 00:15:48,773
The first fantasy
I was ever really introduced to

332
00:15:48,817 --> 00:15:52,864
was when I bought
the Ballantine Edition

333
00:15:52,908 --> 00:15:57,695
of The Hobbit
and it had the Tolkien art

334
00:15:57,739 --> 00:16:00,960
in an oval on the cover
with this weird looking tree

335
00:16:01,003 --> 00:16:03,788
and flamingos.
I was very underwhelmed.

336
00:16:03,832 --> 00:16:06,008
-[laughs]
-I think in a lot of ways

337
00:16:06,052 --> 00:16:08,141
we took what we considered
that birthplace of fantasy,

338
00:16:08,184 --> 00:16:10,099
literature,
and brought it into D&D

339
00:16:10,143 --> 00:16:13,059
and then created this art form

340
00:16:13,102 --> 00:16:15,017
that took in all the archetypes.

341
00:16:15,061 --> 00:16:18,020
[Elmore] That male thing
of just being the hero

342
00:16:18,064 --> 00:16:20,109
and charging in and maybe
a woman that could kick butt

343
00:16:20,153 --> 00:16:22,068
and take names
right there with you

344
00:16:22,111 --> 00:16:23,721
and just as tough as you were,
it's like ultimate fantasy.

345
00:16:23,765 --> 00:16:26,289
I think once D&Dcame out
and--

346
00:16:26,333 --> 00:16:28,465
and we started
painting the stuff,

347
00:16:28,509 --> 00:16:31,642
it sparked the imaginations
of generations.

348
00:16:31,686 --> 00:16:33,253
It was primed for this.

349
00:16:33,296 --> 00:16:36,908
And suddenly it was this
entire new audience

350
00:16:36,952 --> 00:16:40,651
that we could expose
not only our art,

351
00:16:40,695 --> 00:16:43,524
but just the whole tradition
of fantastical illustration to.

352
00:16:43,567 --> 00:16:47,180
[Wilshire] As far as kind of
a market place

353
00:16:47,223 --> 00:16:50,052
that the TSR artists
were coming into

354
00:16:50,096 --> 00:16:51,880
when they're starting.

355
00:16:51,923 --> 00:16:54,187
You know, they're really
kind of starting with--

356
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:57,581
with kind of a broad stroke.

357
00:16:57,625 --> 00:17:02,325
There really isn't,
you know, an established thing

358
00:17:02,369 --> 00:17:05,502
at that point that everybody
is expecting them to do.

359
00:17:05,546 --> 00:17:07,069
And, "Oh, yes."

360
00:17:07,113 --> 00:17:08,810
You know, "Fantasy art
should look like this."

361
00:17:08,853 --> 00:17:10,855
At that point
there really wasn't

362
00:17:10,899 --> 00:17:12,553
a "fantasy art
should look like this."

363
00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:16,644
When TSR started
they did all their own artwork.

364
00:17:16,687 --> 00:17:19,081
In the very early days,
they were just using people

365
00:17:19,125 --> 00:17:20,952
like right out of high school
or whatever.

366
00:17:20,996 --> 00:17:24,826
Just kids that they knew.
Tracy Lesch or Greg Bell.

367
00:17:24,869 --> 00:17:26,480
I mean, these are people
that are people that--

368
00:17:26,523 --> 00:17:29,744
they were young, young, young,
young high schoolers

369
00:17:29,787 --> 00:17:31,789
or just out of high school,
you know?

370
00:17:31,833 --> 00:17:35,924
[Dee] I grew up in a little town
in Northern Illinois

371
00:17:35,967 --> 00:17:38,448
in the far,
deep Chicago suburbs,

372
00:17:38,492 --> 00:17:40,581
that was about
a one half-hour drive

373
00:17:40,624 --> 00:17:42,278
south of Lake Geneva,
Wisconsin,

374
00:17:42,322 --> 00:17:44,976
which is where the
Dungeon Hobby Shop was located.

375
00:17:45,020 --> 00:17:46,935
In those days,
they were in a--

376
00:17:46,978 --> 00:17:48,806
basically a converted house.
On the lower floor

377
00:17:48,850 --> 00:17:50,895
was the Dungeon Hobby Shop
and the upper floor

378
00:17:50,939 --> 00:17:52,723
was the offices of TSR.

379
00:17:52,767 --> 00:17:54,812
My first
professionally published work

380
00:17:54,856 --> 00:17:58,599
is in Dragon Magazinenumber six
'cause we used to go up,

381
00:17:58,642 --> 00:18:00,644
say once a month,
to the Dungeon Hobby Shop

382
00:18:00,688 --> 00:18:03,125
and see what was new and
I would show them my drawings

383
00:18:03,169 --> 00:18:04,648
and they were interested.

384
00:18:04,692 --> 00:18:06,520
There were no rules.
If we liked it we ran it.

385
00:18:06,563 --> 00:18:08,696
If I thought he was good
and he sent me a bunch

386
00:18:08,739 --> 00:18:10,915
of Homeric Greek stuff,
but I thought it was good

387
00:18:10,959 --> 00:18:14,136
I might write him and say,
"Hey, how are you at medieval?"

388
00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:16,965
And encourage him to send me
a few medieval-looking guys.

389
00:18:17,008 --> 00:18:18,967
And I found a few guys that way.

390
00:18:19,010 --> 00:18:21,187
[Parkinson] So it was really
just for people

391
00:18:21,230 --> 00:18:23,580
who love to do it
and wanted to make something

392
00:18:23,624 --> 00:18:25,408
others could love
to do as well.

393
00:18:25,452 --> 00:18:28,368
It feels like that, you know?
And I think, at the same time,

394
00:18:28,411 --> 00:18:30,152
that's part of the charm.

395
00:18:30,196 --> 00:18:32,241
[Wham] We would, you know,
get these assignments

396
00:18:32,285 --> 00:18:33,938
generally from Gary
and he'd say,

397
00:18:33,982 --> 00:18:35,853
"I want you to
do this."

398
00:18:35,897 --> 00:18:38,465
And he'd make a little sketch or
something on a piece of paper.

399
00:18:38,508 --> 00:18:42,295
And then we would do whatever
it is he wanted done

400
00:18:42,338 --> 00:18:45,167
to make the monster
whatever he did.

401
00:18:45,211 --> 00:18:48,649
The work was raw.
The work was not really defined

402
00:18:48,692 --> 00:18:50,477
and a lot of times you'd look
at the stuff and go,

403
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,827
"I'm not exactly sure
what I'm looking at."

404
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:55,221
So it left a lot of room
for the imagination.

405
00:18:55,264 --> 00:18:56,613
[Horsley] Thought,
"What is this rust monster?

406
00:18:56,657 --> 00:18:58,311
What is this weird thing?"

407
00:18:58,354 --> 00:19:00,226
Or, "What is that?"
You know, "A gelatinous cube?"

408
00:19:00,269 --> 00:19:01,966
I think a gelatinous cube
is fantastic.

409
00:19:02,010 --> 00:19:04,665
It's giving you information
about the world.

410
00:19:04,708 --> 00:19:07,624
It's giving you permission
to use your imagination.

411
00:19:07,668 --> 00:19:10,366
[Phoenix] I was always
fascinated with

412
00:19:10,410 --> 00:19:12,542
the black and white art
in theMonster's Manual

413
00:19:12,586 --> 00:19:14,196
and the books.
They were so...

414
00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,200
small and specific
and they communicated so much.

415
00:19:18,244 --> 00:19:20,420
They fed so much of my
imagination in these

416
00:19:20,463 --> 00:19:22,117
little, tiny drawings.

417
00:19:22,161 --> 00:19:24,859
And especially now
with all these amazing, wicked,

418
00:19:24,902 --> 00:19:28,123
full-color murals
ofDungeons & Dragons.

419
00:19:28,167 --> 00:19:33,955
I prefer that really simple way
of communicating fantasy.

420
00:19:33,998 --> 00:19:36,262
So I think they looked
at them like textbooks

421
00:19:36,305 --> 00:19:41,615
versus this visual guide
to an imaginary world

422
00:19:41,658 --> 00:19:44,574
created by. you know,
Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

423
00:19:44,618 --> 00:19:47,229
[LaForce] The manuscript
would just be type

424
00:19:47,273 --> 00:19:49,753
and then it would stop
and there would be

425
00:19:49,797 --> 00:19:52,582
blank space
and we'd be given that and say,

426
00:19:52,626 --> 00:19:55,977
"Okay, here's a blank space.
Fill the hole."

427
00:19:56,020 --> 00:19:58,066
Sometimes we'd want
the illustration to go between

428
00:19:58,109 --> 00:20:00,068
two columns.
Sometimes it would be just

429
00:20:00,111 --> 00:20:02,113
in the column
or we could get a half page

430
00:20:02,157 --> 00:20:05,204
at the bottom or we'd split it
up into small one at the bottom,

431
00:20:05,247 --> 00:20:07,771
small one at the top.
So we got to make that decision.

432
00:20:07,815 --> 00:20:11,210
If there were descriptions
about something

433
00:20:11,253 --> 00:20:14,125
you had to go according
to the description,

434
00:20:14,169 --> 00:20:17,172
but mostly it was,
"Well, we need a picture

435
00:20:17,216 --> 00:20:20,741
of someone holding a staff.
Make it fit."

436
00:20:20,784 --> 00:20:24,353
What I liked to do is...
I didn't have a light table.

437
00:20:24,397 --> 00:20:28,052
So I used paper
that I could see through

438
00:20:28,096 --> 00:20:31,882
and after I'd drawn something
that I didn't quite like

439
00:20:31,926 --> 00:20:34,929
I would then put
another sheet of paper over it

440
00:20:34,972 --> 00:20:36,931
and redraw it
and make it the way I liked it.

441
00:20:36,974 --> 00:20:41,240
The good artists
were just masters at that craft

442
00:20:41,283 --> 00:20:44,243
of creating fantastic
black and white artwork.

443
00:20:44,286 --> 00:20:48,464
To create depth and volume

444
00:20:48,508 --> 00:20:50,466
with black and white.

445
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:53,208
On and off, there or not.

446
00:20:53,252 --> 00:20:56,255
One piece
that I really remember

447
00:20:56,298 --> 00:21:00,694
that amazed me was
Jim Roslof's full-page drawing

448
00:21:00,737 --> 00:21:03,827
of Thor
fromDeities & Demigods.

449
00:21:03,871 --> 00:21:07,266
He's like swinging his hammer
and there's like mist

450
00:21:07,309 --> 00:21:09,572
or clouds or something
all around him.

451
00:21:09,616 --> 00:21:13,184
And it has, you know,
his style which has always been

452
00:21:13,228 --> 00:21:19,103
this sort of Celtic-influenced
detailed yet abstract

453
00:21:19,147 --> 00:21:22,237
-kind of stuff.
-Jim's artwork was--

454
00:21:22,281 --> 00:21:26,067
first it was unique because
he wasn't constricted

455
00:21:26,110 --> 00:21:28,852
by normal proportions.

456
00:21:28,896 --> 00:21:30,724
He liked to exaggerate.

457
00:21:30,767 --> 00:21:35,685
So he was able to stylize it
more than just to make it

458
00:21:35,729 --> 00:21:39,167
realistic which is, obviously,
what the fantasy was about.

459
00:21:39,210 --> 00:21:42,039
And Jim was already
very good at being able

460
00:21:42,083 --> 00:21:45,129
to do foreshortening
and make it impactful.

461
00:21:45,173 --> 00:21:46,392
[LaForce]
This is one of my original

462
00:21:46,435 --> 00:21:48,132
Jim Rosloff's that I have.

463
00:21:48,176 --> 00:21:51,353
Most of the other artists
that you kind of think about

464
00:21:51,397 --> 00:21:53,486
as great painters,

465
00:21:53,529 --> 00:21:55,879
Jim was a great
black and white artist.

466
00:21:55,923 --> 00:21:59,013
I always felt that
he was one of the more

467
00:21:59,056 --> 00:22:03,191
underrated artists,
underappreciated artists at TSR.

468
00:22:03,234 --> 00:22:05,846
It's not like a super tight
drawing, you know?

469
00:22:05,889 --> 00:22:07,326
It's very fluid.

470
00:22:07,369 --> 00:22:09,197
A lot of movement
and feel through it.

471
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,199
That's why
he's one of my favorites.

472
00:22:11,242 --> 00:22:14,245
Dave Trampier--
Tramp, my buddy.

473
00:22:14,289 --> 00:22:17,074
I think he did
as much to fantasy art

474
00:22:17,118 --> 00:22:20,904
as Frazetta did
for heroic fantasy art.

475
00:22:20,948 --> 00:22:23,733
I think Tramp did
for the rest of us gaming art.

476
00:22:23,777 --> 00:22:25,909
He said we get to have fun,
we get to stick

477
00:22:25,953 --> 00:22:28,651
our tongue
in our cheek and still not

478
00:22:28,695 --> 00:22:30,479
break the mold or the milieu.

479
00:22:30,523 --> 00:22:32,438
[Horsley] The wizard galloping
down the street firing off

480
00:22:32,481 --> 00:22:34,265
the magic missile, you know?

481
00:22:34,309 --> 00:22:36,093
And it sort of sells you
something about

482
00:22:36,137 --> 00:22:39,140
those sort of worlds.
Those sort of fantasy worlds.

483
00:22:39,183 --> 00:22:41,534
They weren't Tolkien-esque
in the sense of being

484
00:22:41,577 --> 00:22:45,581
really dark and grim, you know,
there was a lightness in them.

485
00:22:45,625 --> 00:22:48,976
[Wham] I would watch him
draw things and I would just...

486
00:22:49,019 --> 00:22:52,022
"Oh, my God, he's so good
because, you know,

487
00:22:52,066 --> 00:22:55,635
he'd, just miraculously, what
would look like a little lump,

488
00:22:55,678 --> 00:22:58,159
suddenly turned
into this wonderful thing.

489
00:22:58,202 --> 00:23:01,162
[LaForce] This is one of my
favorite pieces which is

490
00:23:01,205 --> 00:23:05,035
The God of the Lizard Men.
I wanted to do a drawing

491
00:23:05,079 --> 00:23:07,908
that was like
a Dave Trampier drawing.

492
00:23:07,951 --> 00:23:09,866
That's who I was thinking of
at the time

493
00:23:09,910 --> 00:23:12,391
and I think
I did a pretty good job

494
00:23:12,434 --> 00:23:14,567
on doing something
that kind of looked like

495
00:23:14,610 --> 00:23:16,656
something that
Trampier would do.

496
00:23:16,699 --> 00:23:18,701
[Wilshire] I think
Dave Sutherland was probably

497
00:23:18,745 --> 00:23:22,618
actually the strongest
technical artist

498
00:23:22,662 --> 00:23:26,448
in terms of being the best
draftsman among the bunch

499
00:23:26,492 --> 00:23:28,494
from a kind of
a traditional perspective.

500
00:23:28,537 --> 00:23:30,626
I'm thinking of things
like thePaladin In Hell.

501
00:23:30,670 --> 00:23:34,064
That would be a perfectly fine
and effective

502
00:23:34,108 --> 00:23:37,285
black and white
illustration in 2018.

503
00:23:37,328 --> 00:23:38,982
You can read the
Paladin in Hellillustration

504
00:23:39,026 --> 00:23:40,593
in lots of different ways.

505
00:23:40,636 --> 00:23:43,378
Is he some sort of like
completely foolhardy,

506
00:23:43,422 --> 00:23:46,250
reckless guy who--
it's like some sort of

507
00:23:46,294 --> 00:23:47,861
suicide mission.
He's going in there.

508
00:23:47,904 --> 00:23:49,558
It's a kamikaze attack.
So what?

509
00:23:49,602 --> 00:23:51,473
He's gonna go down,
but he's gonna take

510
00:23:51,517 --> 00:23:53,910
so many of these devils
and demons with him.

511
00:23:53,954 --> 00:23:55,259
Or is there actually
something like,

512
00:23:55,303 --> 00:23:57,305
"Wow, this guy must be
so awesomely hard

513
00:23:57,348 --> 00:23:59,916
that he on his own could go
into this environment

514
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,918
and he's gonna
somehow come out?"

515
00:24:01,962 --> 00:24:06,270
♪

516
00:24:06,314 --> 00:24:09,752
So when I got
to TSR's art department,

517
00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:11,580
um, things had changed.

518
00:24:11,624 --> 00:24:13,234
They had gotten
a lot more successful.

519
00:24:13,277 --> 00:24:16,019
There was a place called
the Hotel Claire with a bar

520
00:24:16,063 --> 00:24:17,978
on the main street
that I would go to

521
00:24:18,021 --> 00:24:19,675
and occasionally have a beer.

522
00:24:19,719 --> 00:24:23,462
The hotel was for sale
and TSR was doing well enough.

523
00:24:23,505 --> 00:24:25,594
They bought
the whole darn hotel,

524
00:24:25,638 --> 00:24:28,336
but then the place
that used to be the bar

525
00:24:28,379 --> 00:24:31,382
on Main Street
was the new Dungeon Hobby Shop

526
00:24:31,426 --> 00:24:34,385
and then upstairs,
where the hotel was,

527
00:24:34,429 --> 00:24:36,170
were the TSR offices.

528
00:24:36,213 --> 00:24:39,129
[Otus] It was an old building
with like slanted floors

529
00:24:39,173 --> 00:24:40,696
and I thought
it was really cool.

530
00:24:40,740 --> 00:24:44,874
Literally rooms where--
that were sagging

531
00:24:44,918 --> 00:24:47,268
that we didn't use
'cause we were afraid

532
00:24:47,311 --> 00:24:50,358
-they were going to cave in.
-There was a false ceiling

533
00:24:50,401 --> 00:24:53,404
and, uh, I can't remember
who it was,

534
00:24:53,448 --> 00:24:56,756
I think it was maybe Erol Otus
was wandering around up there

535
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:58,845
and he stepped on something
he shouldn't have stepped on

536
00:24:58,888 --> 00:25:03,066
and his feet came down
hanging out from the ceiling.

537
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:05,721
We were on the third floor.
It wasn't a very large office.

538
00:25:05,765 --> 00:25:08,724
We each had a drawing table.

539
00:25:08,768 --> 00:25:11,335
Um, and it was pretty spartan,
but in the months to come

540
00:25:11,379 --> 00:25:14,338
we added several artists
and moved to the second floor

541
00:25:14,382 --> 00:25:16,297
and that was
a much larger space.

542
00:25:16,340 --> 00:25:19,082
It was never like
we were in this isolated group

543
00:25:19,126 --> 00:25:20,997
or this isolated place.

544
00:25:21,041 --> 00:25:24,044
Our place was always, always
had people coming through.

545
00:25:24,087 --> 00:25:28,352
A woman from the PR department
comes by with this man

546
00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:32,008
and his two boys and the PR lady
starts asking me questions

547
00:25:32,052 --> 00:25:33,923
about
my educational background.

548
00:25:33,967 --> 00:25:35,838
She said,
"So you finished high school

549
00:25:35,882 --> 00:25:38,101
and everything right?"
I said, "Well, you know,

550
00:25:38,145 --> 00:25:40,974
I got out after a year-and-half
'cause I wanted

551
00:25:41,017 --> 00:25:43,367
to go to art school." She gave
me a little frown and just,

552
00:25:43,411 --> 00:25:45,065
"Yeah, so you--you went
to art school

553
00:25:45,108 --> 00:25:46,762
and you finished that right?"
"Well, it was

554
00:25:46,806 --> 00:25:49,330
a three year course
and after a year-and-a-half

555
00:25:49,373 --> 00:25:51,637
I got the job here."
And she kind of like

556
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,769
gave me a sneer and moved on.

557
00:25:53,813 --> 00:25:57,251
I found out later
that what was happening is

558
00:25:57,294 --> 00:26:00,602
this guy's kids
were not doing their schoolwork

559
00:26:00,646 --> 00:26:03,344
because they were playing
too muchDungeons & Dragons.

560
00:26:03,387 --> 00:26:05,999
And I was supposed
to be the voice

561
00:26:06,042 --> 00:26:07,783
of the importance of education.

562
00:26:07,827 --> 00:26:12,440
The culture at TSR
was--was incredible in that

563
00:26:12,483 --> 00:26:15,138
it was very creative
because, again, a lot of this--

564
00:26:15,182 --> 00:26:17,706
nothing had existed before
like this.

565
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:20,361
So we were creating it
all at the same time.

566
00:26:20,404 --> 00:26:23,886
[Wham] TSR was just
a wonderful place to be

567
00:26:23,930 --> 00:26:26,976
because it wasn't like
a normal job

568
00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:30,632
because we were all doing
something that we liked.

569
00:26:30,676 --> 00:26:32,416
And everybody was my friend.

570
00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:36,682
The only thing that was at all
kind of corporate about it

571
00:26:36,725 --> 00:26:38,858
is there was a time clock.

572
00:26:38,901 --> 00:26:42,601
So you had to punch in
and out and nobody liked that.

573
00:26:42,644 --> 00:26:45,038
It was very liberating
to be in a position

574
00:26:45,081 --> 00:26:47,780
of where you were basically
given carte blanche

575
00:26:47,823 --> 00:26:50,217
to do what you want to do
if you got your work done.

576
00:26:50,260 --> 00:26:53,786
So some of us would come in
and work regular business hours.

577
00:26:53,829 --> 00:26:56,049
There were several people
that worked from home.

578
00:26:56,092 --> 00:26:58,442
There were several people
that would go on these binges

579
00:26:58,486 --> 00:27:02,098
and put in 10, 12,
uh, 14 hours in a row.

580
00:27:02,142 --> 00:27:04,448
[LaForce]
I used to go to work

581
00:27:04,492 --> 00:27:06,668
and get there
before anybody else.

582
00:27:06,712 --> 00:27:10,454
I used to jump on the dumpster,
get onto the fire escape,

583
00:27:10,498 --> 00:27:13,153
and I would leave
my window open to my office

584
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:14,850
because I didn't have keys
to the place.

585
00:27:14,894 --> 00:27:17,418
And I would let myself in
and I'd be drawing

586
00:27:17,461 --> 00:27:18,898
before anybody else got there.

587
00:27:18,941 --> 00:27:21,335
I can't think
of a better work environment

588
00:27:21,378 --> 00:27:22,945
that I could have been in.

589
00:27:22,989 --> 00:27:25,600
I had nothing to compare to it.
It just seemed like...

590
00:27:25,644 --> 00:27:27,689
it was the only thing
I ever knew.

591
00:27:27,733 --> 00:27:29,735
So it just seemed
totally natural to me.

592
00:27:29,778 --> 00:27:33,477
We all talked amongst ourselves,
joked amongst ourselves.

593
00:27:33,521 --> 00:27:37,177
We all got along even though
some personnel would change up

594
00:27:37,220 --> 00:27:40,571
now and again, you know, most
personalities clicked.

595
00:27:40,615 --> 00:27:43,836
So the artists
kind of fed off each other.

596
00:27:43,879 --> 00:27:46,360
We were certainly pushing
each other to do better

597
00:27:46,403 --> 00:27:49,102
and to do well and to come up
with crazy ideas.

598
00:27:49,145 --> 00:27:52,714
That was a lot of fun hearing
their ideas for creatures.

599
00:27:52,758 --> 00:27:56,675
I remember
The Lost Shrine of Tamoachan

600
00:27:56,718 --> 00:27:59,503
when describing
the Gibbering Mouther

601
00:27:59,547 --> 00:28:01,288
Jeff Leason would make
a strange sound

602
00:28:01,331 --> 00:28:04,247
which was something like,
"Bleee bleee bleee."

603
00:28:04,291 --> 00:28:06,946
[Quinn] So if we were doing
a module, we would get

604
00:28:06,989 --> 00:28:09,557
a full understanding
of the story and the importance

605
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,473
of what illustrations
were the most critical.

606
00:28:12,516 --> 00:28:15,171
[Otus] And the subject matter
would sometimes be,

607
00:28:15,215 --> 00:28:17,739
"We need
this specific thing from you."

608
00:28:17,783 --> 00:28:20,742
But sometimes it would be
a group of illustrations

609
00:28:20,786 --> 00:28:23,092
that needed to be done
and we would divide them up.

610
00:28:23,136 --> 00:28:24,877
If it was like
the Monster Manual,

611
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,575
very often we were given,
"Okay, here is the next

612
00:28:27,618 --> 00:28:31,753
ten monsters and it's in
under the letter B."

613
00:28:31,797 --> 00:28:34,451
And then you'd finish them, and
by the time you got back in,

614
00:28:34,495 --> 00:28:36,932
it was maybe some other
people had done 'em

615
00:28:36,976 --> 00:28:38,891
and you now had collected
from D into F.

616
00:28:38,934 --> 00:28:40,762
So, when you look
at the Monster Manual

617
00:28:40,806 --> 00:28:42,764
you'll actually see
that there is a series

618
00:28:42,808 --> 00:28:45,114
of illustrations that were done
and then some other artist

619
00:28:45,158 --> 00:28:47,290
would pick them up
and then they would do a series

620
00:28:47,334 --> 00:28:49,902
-and then the next person.
-Through most of the time there

621
00:28:49,945 --> 00:28:51,599
I would just
do anything at all.

622
00:28:51,642 --> 00:28:53,035
It was all great.

623
00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:55,516
I think the one time
that I really, really

624
00:28:55,559 --> 00:28:57,736
had a strong preference was for

625
00:28:57,779 --> 00:29:00,826
the Cthulu mythos
in Deities & Demigods.

626
00:29:00,869 --> 00:29:04,612
Deities & Demigods
included several mythos.

627
00:29:04,655 --> 00:29:08,398
Some from fiction authors
including Lovecraft,

628
00:29:08,442 --> 00:29:12,315
but as it turns out,
TSR didn't actually have

629
00:29:12,359 --> 00:29:15,754
the rights to do some
of those copyrighted materials.

630
00:29:15,797 --> 00:29:18,017
One of the genres
that was removed from

631
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:20,280
Deities & Demigods
was the Cthulu mythos

632
00:29:20,323 --> 00:29:22,978
and, so, I was disappointed
that more people weren't able

633
00:29:23,022 --> 00:29:25,415
to see it,
but in a way it created

634
00:29:25,459 --> 00:29:28,114
a certain amount
of buzz around it

635
00:29:28,157 --> 00:29:30,899
and so hopefully
some people have sought it out.

636
00:29:30,943 --> 00:29:33,946
The assignments
that I disliked the most

637
00:29:33,989 --> 00:29:38,167
were the maps.
And the maps were very technical

638
00:29:38,211 --> 00:29:40,604
and they had to be very precise
and there were other people

639
00:29:40,648 --> 00:29:42,519
that were better at it
than I was.

640
00:29:42,563 --> 00:29:47,394
I said, "I don't care.
I'll--I'll do maps." You know?

641
00:29:47,437 --> 00:29:48,743
That's the job.
I love coming here

642
00:29:48,787 --> 00:29:50,614
and drawing anything,
you know?

643
00:29:50,658 --> 00:29:53,443
I was starting to come up with
all this different symbology

644
00:29:53,487 --> 00:29:56,185
for the maps.
So, you know, if we needed

645
00:29:56,229 --> 00:29:58,753
a one-way secret door
I had to come up with

646
00:29:58,797 --> 00:30:00,711
what a one-way secret door
was gonna to look like.

647
00:30:00,755 --> 00:30:03,323
If I was gonna, you know,
do a barred window,

648
00:30:03,366 --> 00:30:05,194
"Well, what's that
gonna look like on a map?

649
00:30:05,238 --> 00:30:08,110
And then we had to start doing
different levels

650
00:30:08,154 --> 00:30:09,808
and it's like, "Oh, well,
now we got to deal

651
00:30:09,851 --> 00:30:11,940
with stairways going
up and down or,

652
00:30:11,984 --> 00:30:13,550
what are you gonna
do with that?"

653
00:30:13,594 --> 00:30:15,335
So a large part
of what you see today

654
00:30:15,378 --> 00:30:18,729
is because, you know,
I developed a lot of that.

655
00:30:18,773 --> 00:30:22,168
The Greyhawk Map.
Now that was something

656
00:30:22,211 --> 00:30:25,388
to be reckoned with.
It was so large.

657
00:30:25,432 --> 00:30:29,784
When that artwork was done,
they had to go to Madison

658
00:30:29,828 --> 00:30:33,179
to find a camera big enough
to take a photograph.

659
00:30:33,222 --> 00:30:36,443
And I almost had to fall
on it in order to work.

660
00:30:36,486 --> 00:30:40,621
I mean it--[laughs]
It was really unwieldy.

661
00:30:40,664 --> 00:30:43,406
All of these colors were done

662
00:30:43,450 --> 00:30:46,714
by pulling the color
off of these sheets.

663
00:30:46,757 --> 00:30:50,718
Now they come apart
and they peel off.

664
00:30:50,761 --> 00:30:52,633
[paper cracking]

665
00:30:52,676 --> 00:30:57,029
It was a matter of laying down
one thing of color

666
00:30:57,072 --> 00:31:01,381
and then taking
an X-ACTO knife and moving...

667
00:31:01,424 --> 00:31:03,905
cutting it out
and then pulling out

668
00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:07,213
what's not needed and then
laying down another one.

669
00:31:07,256 --> 00:31:11,652
And these are the very ones
I used.

670
00:31:11,695 --> 00:31:16,483
I had little tricks
to make it less cumbersome.

671
00:31:16,526 --> 00:31:21,183
For instance--I can't believe
I'm admitting this...

672
00:31:21,227 --> 00:31:24,230
[sighs]

673
00:31:24,273 --> 00:31:29,365
I would write the names
of the mountains really big.

674
00:31:29,409 --> 00:31:31,411
[laughs]

675
00:31:31,454 --> 00:31:36,329
Can you see how I really
put the--the lettering in here?

676
00:31:36,372 --> 00:31:39,636
Just think how many mountains
I didn't have to do.

677
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,769
Greyhawk really was, um,

678
00:31:41,812 --> 00:31:44,685
something that...

679
00:31:44,728 --> 00:31:46,339
changed my life.

680
00:31:46,382 --> 00:31:50,343
♪

681
00:31:50,386 --> 00:31:54,260
When TSR made
their artistic shift

682
00:31:54,303 --> 00:31:56,349
in the early '80s
and brought in

683
00:31:56,392 --> 00:31:58,612
The Four Horsemen
so to speak,

684
00:31:58,655 --> 00:32:02,746
in relatively short order
the artwork went

685
00:32:02,790 --> 00:32:07,838
from being illustrative
ofD&D,

686
00:32:07,882 --> 00:32:11,190
the things in D&D,
the world of D&D,

687
00:32:11,233 --> 00:32:13,409
what is D&D,you know?

688
00:32:13,453 --> 00:32:17,109
To being
things in and of themselves.

689
00:32:17,152 --> 00:32:18,719
A lot of the folks
in my generation,

690
00:32:18,762 --> 00:32:20,547
this is what they grew up with.

691
00:32:20,590 --> 00:32:22,462
This is, um, their, I guess,

692
00:32:22,505 --> 00:32:25,726
-uh, Picasso you know?
-Those guys were my heroes.

693
00:32:25,769 --> 00:32:28,381
Jeff Easley, Clyde Caldwell,

694
00:32:28,424 --> 00:32:30,470
Larry Elmore, Keith Parkinson.

695
00:32:30,513 --> 00:32:33,690
[Taylor] That's gonna be
'81 to about '88 is when you see

696
00:32:33,734 --> 00:32:38,869
these guys just dominating
Dungeons & Dragonsartwork.

697
00:32:38,913 --> 00:32:42,308
[Easley] Well, I was, uh,
living in Massachusetts

698
00:32:42,351 --> 00:32:44,963
and working
in a popcorn factory.

699
00:32:45,006 --> 00:32:47,400
I had met Larry Elmore
through a mutual friend.

700
00:32:47,443 --> 00:32:50,272
[Elmore] Basically, I did
a freelance piece for them

701
00:32:50,316 --> 00:32:54,189
and they called me up
later and wanted...

702
00:32:54,233 --> 00:32:55,843
to hire me.

703
00:32:55,886 --> 00:32:57,976
[Caldwell] I'd heard
of Dungeons & Dragons,

704
00:32:58,019 --> 00:33:00,021
but I didn't know
very much about it.

705
00:33:00,065 --> 00:33:02,763
So this guy said,
"Well I'm going to submit

706
00:33:02,806 --> 00:33:05,244
some stuff to Dragon Magazine."

707
00:33:05,287 --> 00:33:08,247
Uh, "Why don't you
submit some stuff too?"

708
00:33:08,290 --> 00:33:11,032
[Parkinson] My dad was working
in Chicago at a pinball company

709
00:33:11,076 --> 00:33:13,904
doing pinball backings.
And he was a huge gamer.

710
00:33:13,948 --> 00:33:16,298
He's playingDungeons & Dragons
First Edition

711
00:33:16,342 --> 00:33:18,518
and so he'd be
flipping through and thinking,

712
00:33:18,561 --> 00:33:20,389
"I could do better than this.
I can--I can do this.

713
00:33:20,433 --> 00:33:22,348
I should be painting this."

714
00:33:22,391 --> 00:33:24,785
Then he found out,
they're just up in Lake Geneva.

715
00:33:24,828 --> 00:33:27,179
And to me that sounded like
moving to Alaska.

716
00:33:27,222 --> 00:33:29,572
The first couple of times
they offered me a job

717
00:33:29,616 --> 00:33:30,878
I turned it down and then...

718
00:33:30,921 --> 00:33:32,662
I ended up, uh...

719
00:33:32,706 --> 00:33:34,447
being flown out
for an interview and...

720
00:33:34,490 --> 00:33:36,231
And I looked around
at the place.

721
00:33:36,275 --> 00:33:38,668
It was like, "Look like a bunch
of kids running the place."

722
00:33:38,712 --> 00:33:40,235
I only saw about three or four
people older

723
00:33:40,279 --> 00:33:41,671
than me and Gary Gygax
was one of them.

724
00:33:41,715 --> 00:33:44,544
So we just talked
and they were telling me

725
00:33:44,587 --> 00:33:47,982
about TSR and, you know,
it sounded pretty good. [laughs]

726
00:33:48,026 --> 00:33:50,854
He drove up there and started
talking to the art director

727
00:33:50,898 --> 00:33:53,857
and apparently missed a couple
of big hints

728
00:33:53,901 --> 00:33:56,164
about coming on
full time and left.

729
00:33:56,208 --> 00:33:58,862
Uh, and then when it clicked
months later,

730
00:33:58,906 --> 00:34:01,300
uh, was fortunately able
to still get a position.

731
00:34:01,343 --> 00:34:03,563
Finally the president
of the company at that time

732
00:34:03,606 --> 00:34:07,088
was Kevin Bloom
and he flew down here.

733
00:34:07,132 --> 00:34:09,047
Well, he finally said,
"What do you make?

734
00:34:09,090 --> 00:34:12,180
How much money
do you make a year?"

735
00:34:12,224 --> 00:34:14,791
I told him.
He said, "I'll double it."

736
00:34:14,835 --> 00:34:16,271
I looked at him and said,

737
00:34:16,315 --> 00:34:18,186
"I guess you bought yourself
an artist."

738
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:20,797
When I first got to TSR
they had just bought

739
00:34:20,841 --> 00:34:23,583
a large, new building
over on Sheridan Springs Road

740
00:34:23,626 --> 00:34:25,585
where they had
already moved all the execs

741
00:34:25,628 --> 00:34:27,674
and so forth out there.
And we knew that they were

742
00:34:27,717 --> 00:34:29,893
eventually going to move us
out there as soon as they

743
00:34:29,937 --> 00:34:31,112
made space available.

744
00:34:31,156 --> 00:34:34,681
We had a large room
all to ourselves

745
00:34:34,724 --> 00:34:36,944
so it was a big bullpen-kind
of area.

746
00:34:36,987 --> 00:34:39,425
And we stayed in
that kind of environment

747
00:34:39,468 --> 00:34:43,342
for pretty much the rest
of... of the history of TSR.

748
00:34:43,385 --> 00:34:46,475
Clyde Caldwell, Larry Elmore,

749
00:34:46,519 --> 00:34:49,348
Jeff Easley, Keith Parkinson
each had a corner of the room.

750
00:34:49,391 --> 00:34:52,394
I tried to kind of
make a barrier

751
00:34:52,438 --> 00:34:55,441
so that it would be hard
for people to come

752
00:34:55,484 --> 00:34:58,357
and walk into my area
and see what I was doing.

753
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,794
It didn't work because
they would just come around

754
00:35:00,837 --> 00:35:02,883
and walk around anyway.
[laughs]

755
00:35:02,926 --> 00:35:06,582
Then the floor was covered,
covered in paint.

756
00:35:06,626 --> 00:35:12,022
And in fact Gail Gygax
took us to visit TSR,

757
00:35:12,066 --> 00:35:14,634
the building,
when we were at Gary Con

758
00:35:14,677 --> 00:35:17,724
a couple of years ago
and we got to go in there

759
00:35:17,767 --> 00:35:21,467
and in the art room there's
still paint on the floor.

760
00:35:21,510 --> 00:35:24,731
[Elmore] We'd be working
in that big room together

761
00:35:24,774 --> 00:35:26,167
it'd be pretty quiet and then--

762
00:35:26,211 --> 00:35:28,213
I know I did this
several times,

763
00:35:28,256 --> 00:35:31,172
I'd break the silence and I'd
say, "Can you believe..."

764
00:35:31,216 --> 00:35:36,786
You know I was 35 years old.
I said, "I am 35 years old.

765
00:35:36,830 --> 00:35:38,919
I'm getting paid
really good money

766
00:35:38,962 --> 00:35:41,704
to paint
monsters and dragons."

767
00:35:41,748 --> 00:35:43,967
Everybody just sort of stops,
says, "I can't believe it.

768
00:35:44,011 --> 00:35:47,188
This is unreal."
Here's a picture of all of us

769
00:35:47,232 --> 00:35:50,539
back in TSR in the '80s
when were all young men.

770
00:35:50,583 --> 00:35:52,759
I think they called themselves
the Art Dogs.

771
00:35:52,802 --> 00:35:55,501
Uh, hard to beat that, right?

772
00:35:55,544 --> 00:35:57,720
Yeah I don't want to say
it was like a big party

773
00:35:57,764 --> 00:35:59,940
all the time because we did
have to sit down and do work,

774
00:35:59,983 --> 00:36:02,290
but it was--they kind of
left us alone, you know?

775
00:36:02,334 --> 00:36:06,294
We had these killer dart games
and the scary thing was

776
00:36:06,338 --> 00:36:09,341
when you come through the door
to come into our department,

777
00:36:09,384 --> 00:36:12,431
you were right in the path
of the dart board.

778
00:36:12,474 --> 00:36:13,954
The board was on this wall,
we would stand over here

779
00:36:13,997 --> 00:36:15,912
throwing and you had
to go through the doorway.

780
00:36:15,956 --> 00:36:17,523
So if someone came through
really quick they could've

781
00:36:17,566 --> 00:36:19,307
easily got a dart
in the side of their head.

782
00:36:19,351 --> 00:36:21,962
It almost happened a few times.
So if anybody's got any...

783
00:36:22,005 --> 00:36:24,573
original TSR art and you see
a little perfectly round hole,

784
00:36:24,617 --> 00:36:25,835
that's a dart hole.

785
00:36:25,879 --> 00:36:28,142
Well some people
made the mistake of, uh,

786
00:36:28,186 --> 00:36:30,057
when they gave us
art supplies

787
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:32,625
they gave us this big box
of gigantic rubber bands.

788
00:36:32,668 --> 00:36:34,931
I mean, they're like
pieces of inner tube almost.

789
00:36:34,975 --> 00:36:37,630
So like you what do you do
with a rubber band that size?

790
00:36:37,673 --> 00:36:39,458
You shoot it
at somebody of course.

791
00:36:39,501 --> 00:36:40,894
I think it says so on the box.

792
00:36:40,937 --> 00:36:44,245
One day we had our little fight

793
00:36:44,289 --> 00:36:45,986
and Jeff Easley
was not there

794
00:36:46,029 --> 00:36:49,250
and a rubber band
went skipping across

795
00:36:49,294 --> 00:36:52,819
his oil painting
and it left nice little mark

796
00:36:52,862 --> 00:36:54,560
across it, you know?

797
00:36:54,603 --> 00:36:58,172
It's like, "Oh! Oh! Oh!
Oh, no-- Jeff's painting!

798
00:36:58,216 --> 00:37:00,522
Oh, no! We've got to fix it.
Somebody gotta fix it."

799
00:37:00,566 --> 00:37:03,351
So somebody goes over there
and, you know,

800
00:37:03,395 --> 00:37:07,268
tweaks it around,
and fixes Jeff's oil painting.

801
00:37:07,312 --> 00:37:09,270
And, yeah...
[stammers]

802
00:37:09,314 --> 00:37:14,275
I guess he never
even noticed it, you know?

803
00:37:14,319 --> 00:37:17,365
♪

804
00:37:17,409 --> 00:37:19,106
[Parkinson]
So when Larry joins TSR,

805
00:37:19,149 --> 00:37:20,977
that was probably
the next big step, right?

806
00:37:21,021 --> 00:37:24,416
Here's a guy who's gonna be
doing big color pieces,

807
00:37:24,459 --> 00:37:26,679
oils or, you know,
medium that they hadn't

808
00:37:26,722 --> 00:37:28,463
necessarily had before.

809
00:37:28,507 --> 00:37:31,684
And, so, to really scale up
to be a mass market product--

810
00:37:31,727 --> 00:37:34,382
which is what was the goal
and what they ended up doing

811
00:37:34,426 --> 00:37:37,124
fantastically as it turned out,
you needed to be able

812
00:37:37,167 --> 00:37:38,995
to compete with everything else
on the shelves.

813
00:37:39,039 --> 00:37:40,693
And so that's what they had
to do to get there.

814
00:37:40,736 --> 00:37:44,044
My favorite thing about
Larry Elmore are his skies.

815
00:37:44,087 --> 00:37:48,309
Even if it's a stormy sky,
it's just so--

816
00:37:48,353 --> 00:37:49,919
like he went out
and took a photograph

817
00:37:49,963 --> 00:37:52,182
of the most amazing sky
that you've seen

818
00:37:52,226 --> 00:37:55,055
and he can just put that
in any painting.

819
00:37:55,098 --> 00:37:59,625
Well, Larry Elmore just does
some fantastical environments.

820
00:37:59,668 --> 00:38:02,280
His landscapes
are just beautiful.

821
00:38:02,323 --> 00:38:05,108
The land,
the environment is important.

822
00:38:05,152 --> 00:38:07,110
If it's snow,
if it's mountains,

823
00:38:07,154 --> 00:38:11,680
if it's a desert, water.
This is important to the game.

824
00:38:11,724 --> 00:38:14,335
And on top of that,
I love painting landscapes.

825
00:38:14,379 --> 00:38:17,295
And he loves figure painting,
and he loves story.

826
00:38:17,338 --> 00:38:19,384
When you look at his characters
and they're wearing

827
00:38:19,427 --> 00:38:23,344
unique forms of armor
and interesting weapons

828
00:38:23,388 --> 00:38:26,347
and tools that they're carrying
or the barding on their horse

829
00:38:26,391 --> 00:38:29,176
is really fascinating.
And then in the background

830
00:38:29,219 --> 00:38:33,093
is some landscape.
You know, a castle, ruins,

831
00:38:33,136 --> 00:38:36,401
forest, but you see
the depth of the world.

832
00:38:36,444 --> 00:38:40,230
I made these things.
They hook over there,

833
00:38:40,274 --> 00:38:42,755
they hit this piece of wood here
and they float right above

834
00:38:42,798 --> 00:38:45,453
your painting.
So I use it to brace

835
00:38:45,497 --> 00:38:48,108
my hand on when I paint.
This is how wide that board was

836
00:38:48,151 --> 00:38:51,894
when I got back in 1987.

837
00:38:51,938 --> 00:38:54,332
I worked at TSR, okay?

838
00:38:54,375 --> 00:38:57,247
So I've used this thing.
And what I do,

839
00:38:57,291 --> 00:38:59,380
when I'm painting,
I'll be painting

840
00:38:59,424 --> 00:39:01,426
and I'll clean off my brush
or when I mix my paint

841
00:39:01,469 --> 00:39:04,254
I'll come up here and clean
a little bit of the brush off.

842
00:39:04,298 --> 00:39:07,606
So all this paint here

843
00:39:07,649 --> 00:39:13,046
is made of little dabs of paint
slowly built up.

844
00:39:13,089 --> 00:39:17,311
So that's how every painting
I've done since '87

845
00:39:17,355 --> 00:39:20,358
it's probably got
some of that paint in here.

846
00:39:24,405 --> 00:39:28,931
Larry had this thing
that he would sometimes,

847
00:39:28,975 --> 00:39:32,239
uh, sign under the name
Jack Fred

848
00:39:32,282 --> 00:39:34,546
to some of his paintings
when he felt like

849
00:39:34,589 --> 00:39:36,852
he didn't have time
to do a good job.

850
00:39:36,896 --> 00:39:40,378
It was-- Came from a little
thing he had with his kids.

851
00:39:40,421 --> 00:39:44,338
I would talk sorta funny
and real country

852
00:39:44,382 --> 00:39:47,689
and I'd call myself Jack Fred.

853
00:39:47,733 --> 00:39:50,213
And it's like
I wasn't very smart.

854
00:39:50,257 --> 00:39:52,302
And the kids would laugh
and ask me questions.

855
00:39:52,346 --> 00:39:54,435
I'd answer 'em and it was just a
game we'd play in the car a lot.

856
00:39:54,479 --> 00:39:59,309
I did a painting.
It wasn't very good at all.

857
00:39:59,353 --> 00:40:01,094
I said,
"I can't sign my name to this.

858
00:40:01,137 --> 00:40:02,965
This is not a real painting.
It's, you know,

859
00:40:03,009 --> 00:40:06,882
it's more like a practice piece
or something, a rough."

860
00:40:06,926 --> 00:40:09,711
So I thought,
"I'm not signing my name to it."

861
00:40:09,755 --> 00:40:12,018
So I thought of Jack Fred.

862
00:40:12,061 --> 00:40:14,020
So some of the others of us--
Occasionally when we'd

863
00:40:14,063 --> 00:40:17,763
have to do something that was
really kind of, [chuckles]

864
00:40:17,806 --> 00:40:20,722
not of the best quality
would sign it Jack Fred.

865
00:40:20,766 --> 00:40:23,290
So occasionally you'll find
a Jack Fred

866
00:40:23,333 --> 00:40:26,728
attributed among the credits
in the TSR product line.

867
00:40:26,772 --> 00:40:28,817
[Schindehette] His thing is
always, "I didn't know

868
00:40:28,861 --> 00:40:30,428
what I was doing.
I was just doing it

869
00:40:30,471 --> 00:40:31,820
and hoping it turned out cool

870
00:40:31,864 --> 00:40:33,474
and it was fun
and people enjoyed it."

871
00:40:33,518 --> 00:40:36,608
And he never thought of it
as the idea of...

872
00:40:36,651 --> 00:40:38,436
"I'm creating this image
and this is gonna be

873
00:40:38,479 --> 00:40:39,959
the birth of something huge."

874
00:40:40,002 --> 00:40:43,528
This is probably the most
highly-visible piece

875
00:40:43,571 --> 00:40:45,312
I ever did in my life

876
00:40:45,355 --> 00:40:46,835
and it's been seen
all over the world.

877
00:40:46,879 --> 00:40:48,620
If I had known it was
gonna be what it was

878
00:40:48,663 --> 00:40:50,143
when I painted it,
it'd probably scared me to death

879
00:40:50,186 --> 00:40:51,753
and then I'd done something
a lot worse.

880
00:40:51,797 --> 00:40:54,408
I sat down at my desk
and did a big drawing

881
00:40:54,452 --> 00:40:56,497
it took me half a day probably.

882
00:40:56,541 --> 00:40:59,457
The whole party
fighting a dragon

883
00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:02,242
and that drawing
comes back rejected.

884
00:41:02,285 --> 00:41:05,593
No explanation.
Just "No. We don't like it."

885
00:41:05,637 --> 00:41:09,684
I went to go see Gary.
"You can't do that."

886
00:41:09,728 --> 00:41:12,121
Only special people
can see him you know?

887
00:41:12,165 --> 00:41:16,386
"Well, he wants his cover done
for his D&D?

888
00:41:16,430 --> 00:41:17,953
Then I'm gonna have
to talk to him."

889
00:41:17,997 --> 00:41:20,652
And I told him I said,
"What do you want?"

890
00:41:20,695 --> 00:41:22,349
I said, "I've turned in
two or three things already

891
00:41:22,392 --> 00:41:24,525
and you don't like it."
I said "So what are you

892
00:41:24,569 --> 00:41:27,310
wanting out of this cover?"
He looked at me and sort of

893
00:41:27,354 --> 00:41:29,487
bent over and he said,
"I want something

894
00:41:29,530 --> 00:41:31,706
that will reach out and grab ya
like this."

895
00:41:31,750 --> 00:41:34,535
So I was sitting there like,
"Well, okay, I get it.

896
00:41:34,579 --> 00:41:36,406
I understand."
So I went back and drew

897
00:41:36,450 --> 00:41:39,758
this drawing relatively fast.
And showed to him and he said

898
00:41:39,801 --> 00:41:41,716
"That's exactly what I want."

899
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,502
It's not a horrible painting,
but it's not the best painting

900
00:41:44,545 --> 00:41:46,373
I ever done.
I think for the time

901
00:41:46,416 --> 00:41:48,549
and for the game
and to reflect the action

902
00:41:48,593 --> 00:41:52,466
the young people wanted to see
in the game, it did its job.

903
00:41:56,470 --> 00:42:00,039
[Cooper] I don't really remember
ever seeing Jeff paint.

904
00:42:00,082 --> 00:42:03,695
Jeff was always looking
at his canvas...

905
00:42:03,738 --> 00:42:08,351
And he'd rock like this,
and he'd study it...

906
00:42:08,395 --> 00:42:11,703
and he'd study it...
and he'd study it.

907
00:42:11,746 --> 00:42:13,618
You'd walk away
and you'd get a cup of coffee

908
00:42:13,661 --> 00:42:16,359
and come back
and he'd still be studying it.

909
00:42:16,403 --> 00:42:18,405
Then you'd go to work
on your own piece for an hour

910
00:42:18,448 --> 00:42:20,625
and you'd come back
and he'd still be studying it.

911
00:42:20,668 --> 00:42:23,366
You'd go, "What the he--."
You'd go to the bathroom

912
00:42:23,410 --> 00:42:25,978
and you'd come back
and it's half done.

913
00:42:26,021 --> 00:42:30,199
Jeff easily did not rely
on photographic reference

914
00:42:30,243 --> 00:42:32,767
like Keith and Larry did.

915
00:42:32,811 --> 00:42:35,857
So when you look at
a Jeff Easley piece

916
00:42:35,901 --> 00:42:38,730
you feel the energy--
the gestural energy--behind it.

917
00:42:38,773 --> 00:42:40,775
Out of all the artists--
staff artists that were

918
00:42:40,819 --> 00:42:42,734
doing it,
Larry Elmore, Clyde Caldwell,

919
00:42:42,777 --> 00:42:46,651
Jeff's artwork made me feel
like a kid again.

920
00:42:46,694 --> 00:42:51,090
When I saw Jeff Easley's art
for the Monster Manual II,

921
00:42:51,133 --> 00:42:54,180
fighter facing off
against a Hill Giant,

922
00:42:54,223 --> 00:42:56,008
that rocked my world.

923
00:42:56,051 --> 00:42:58,184
It kicked the stool
out from under me

924
00:42:58,227 --> 00:42:59,533
and kicked me in the teeth.

925
00:42:59,577 --> 00:43:02,275
All of a sudden here's real art

926
00:43:02,318 --> 00:43:05,887
on the covers of theD&D books.

927
00:43:05,931 --> 00:43:08,716
With Jeff Easley
it would be the dragons.

928
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,805
He's kind of one of those where
you can look at it

929
00:43:10,849 --> 00:43:13,460
and you know that
it's a Jeff Easley dragon.

930
00:43:13,503 --> 00:43:16,768
Jeff's dragons are just
friggin cool, man.

931
00:43:16,811 --> 00:43:20,641
I mean, look here, you've got
one of Jeff Easley's

932
00:43:20,685 --> 00:43:24,123
incredible paintings
of Verminaard and the dragon.

933
00:43:24,166 --> 00:43:28,431
The scales,
the drooling, you know, mouth,

934
00:43:28,475 --> 00:43:30,869
the teeth.
It's just, you know,

935
00:43:30,912 --> 00:43:34,524
it's just so much life and
detail in it that it's amazing.

936
00:43:34,568 --> 00:43:36,744
Yeah, my holy grail
I would say that, you know,

937
00:43:36,788 --> 00:43:39,660
I still don't believe I have it,
is definitely Jeff Easley's

938
00:43:39,704 --> 00:43:41,314
Big Red Dragon painting.

939
00:43:41,357 --> 00:43:43,446
From what I understand
the art direction that Jeff

940
00:43:43,490 --> 00:43:45,361
got is like, you know,
"We want a dragon

941
00:43:45,405 --> 00:43:47,407
that's kind of in your face
and whatnot."

942
00:43:47,450 --> 00:43:49,844
So you know that's kind of how
I got introduced intoD&D.

943
00:43:49,888 --> 00:43:53,326
I think I have done one pen
and ink drawing of a dragon

944
00:43:53,369 --> 00:43:55,589
before I got to TSR.
I think the first one

945
00:43:55,633 --> 00:43:58,287
I ever painted was
the firstMonster Manual

946
00:43:58,331 --> 00:44:00,855
of the dragon and the Pegasi.

947
00:44:00,899 --> 00:44:03,510
Probably a little overkill
doing all the scales

948
00:44:03,553 --> 00:44:05,643
like that tightly and so forth.

949
00:44:05,686 --> 00:44:08,297
And then, you know,
there's no horns

950
00:44:08,341 --> 00:44:10,430
or any kind of sweep back
on the head here like I would

951
00:44:10,473 --> 00:44:12,998
certainly do nowadays.
Well, luckily, with dragons

952
00:44:13,041 --> 00:44:15,522
being a mythological creature
that there's no--

953
00:44:15,565 --> 00:44:17,872
there is no way to do it wrong.

954
00:44:17,916 --> 00:44:21,484
It's, uh, you know,
there's no--no dragon police

955
00:44:21,528 --> 00:44:26,185
that are gonna come in
and tell you did it incorrectly.

956
00:44:26,228 --> 00:44:29,492
Well, as far as skeletons
and painting undead

957
00:44:29,536 --> 00:44:33,148
and that sort of thing, that
harkens back to my, you know,

958
00:44:33,192 --> 00:44:36,151
lifelong love of monsters
and fantasy.

959
00:44:36,195 --> 00:44:40,808
I mean, I just--
I just I loved skulls

960
00:44:40,852 --> 00:44:42,723
when I was a kid
much to my parents chagrin.

961
00:44:42,767 --> 00:44:45,030
[Arneson] Jeff Easley's undead
are so cool

962
00:44:45,073 --> 00:44:46,858
because there's so much
life in them.

963
00:44:46,901 --> 00:44:50,252
Zombie-like, living,
they've got personality.

964
00:44:50,296 --> 00:44:51,645
And you don't want to mess
with them.

965
00:44:51,689 --> 00:44:53,865
They're pretty frickin bad ass

966
00:44:53,908 --> 00:44:55,867
and, you know,
they scare the crap out of you.

967
00:44:55,910 --> 00:44:59,522
They just have an intrinsic
power to them I think.

968
00:44:59,566 --> 00:45:04,919
Jeff Easley's Magisterpainting
is such an awesome

969
00:45:04,963 --> 00:45:07,139
Dungeons & Dragonspiece.

970
00:45:07,182 --> 00:45:10,359
I mean, you've got
this wizard Magister

971
00:45:10,403 --> 00:45:14,102
who's raising these undead,
you know?

972
00:45:14,146 --> 00:45:16,452
And you're just drawn in
to the picture

973
00:45:16,496 --> 00:45:18,846
and you want to know, "Why?
What's going on?"

974
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:22,632
Jeff was the best--
the best at doing magic.

975
00:45:22,676 --> 00:45:25,244
Hands down, man.
You just look at an Easley.

976
00:45:25,287 --> 00:45:27,899
When you see an Easley magician
going at it,

977
00:45:27,942 --> 00:45:30,945
the magic,
he just knew how to do that.

978
00:45:30,989 --> 00:45:36,342
And then Jim organized
a lunchtime D&Dgame.

979
00:45:36,385 --> 00:45:41,042
I was playing a magic user.
an elven magic user

980
00:45:41,086 --> 00:45:43,784
named Cragmar from the land
beyond the mountain.

981
00:45:43,828 --> 00:45:47,483
One day after I just turned
sixth level,

982
00:45:47,527 --> 00:45:50,486
we were in a situation where
I thought it would be a cool

983
00:45:50,530 --> 00:45:53,402
thing to do to cast my new
fireball I just got.

984
00:45:53,446 --> 00:45:55,230
Of course,
if you read the rules

985
00:45:55,274 --> 00:45:57,232
you will find out
that if it is thrown

986
00:45:57,276 --> 00:46:00,322
in a confined space
like a dungeon,

987
00:46:00,366 --> 00:46:02,803
a small dungeon room,
that it has to have a certain

988
00:46:02,847 --> 00:46:05,284
area to dissipate
for your fellow characters

989
00:46:05,327 --> 00:46:06,807
can survive it.

990
00:46:06,851 --> 00:46:10,593
Keith says, "Jeff,
are you sure you wanna do this?"

991
00:46:10,637 --> 00:46:12,813
-"Yeah."
-[Easley] He did everything

992
00:46:12,857 --> 00:46:15,163
he could do to prevent me
from frying everybody,

993
00:46:15,207 --> 00:46:18,558
but I-- I persisted and managed
to kill the entire party.

994
00:46:18,601 --> 00:46:20,952
That kind of ended the game.
[laughs]

995
00:46:21,996 --> 00:46:24,825
♪

996
00:46:24,869 --> 00:46:27,393
[Cooper] Clyde was definitely
a perfectionist

997
00:46:27,436 --> 00:46:29,612
and very particular

998
00:46:29,656 --> 00:46:32,615
about getting everything
exactly right.

999
00:46:32,659 --> 00:46:36,054
I never was really comfortable

1000
00:46:36,097 --> 00:46:38,621
with people seeing my work
before it was finished.

1001
00:46:38,665 --> 00:46:40,798
I didn't mind showing it
to people after

1002
00:46:40,841 --> 00:46:43,539
it was finished,
but I didn't like people

1003
00:46:43,583 --> 00:46:47,413
seeing it in progress
since--especially if I was

1004
00:46:47,456 --> 00:46:48,849
having trouble with something

1005
00:46:48,893 --> 00:46:50,416
or something
didn't look good to me.

1006
00:46:50,459 --> 00:46:52,287
Clyde would take
how ever long it took to do

1007
00:46:52,331 --> 00:46:54,594
a painting no matter what.
If his world's come to an end

1008
00:46:54,637 --> 00:46:57,553
or they threatened to shoot him
he would just ignore them.

1009
00:46:57,597 --> 00:47:01,122
[Giancola] Clyde would paint
probably like a Flemish painter

1010
00:47:01,166 --> 00:47:04,343
where there's a tremendous
amount of precision and detail.

1011
00:47:04,386 --> 00:47:08,869
He knew how to bring out
the concrete shape of a form

1012
00:47:08,913 --> 00:47:11,959
describing a sword,
describing armor,

1013
00:47:12,003 --> 00:47:14,048
and making you really
understand

1014
00:47:14,092 --> 00:47:15,658
the mechanics
and the structure.

1015
00:47:15,702 --> 00:47:18,836
His colors were so bright
and vibrant

1016
00:47:18,879 --> 00:47:21,664
Everything seemed
blended so well.

1017
00:47:21,708 --> 00:47:24,145
[Giancola]
Clyde really just put together

1018
00:47:24,189 --> 00:47:28,106
a very saturated presentation
and I think that speaks to

1019
00:47:28,149 --> 00:47:32,675
the energy that was
the aesthetic that was desired

1020
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,677
in art in the '80s.

1021
00:47:34,721 --> 00:47:39,291
Ravenloftwas one of my first
assignments when I came to TSR.

1022
00:47:39,334 --> 00:47:42,511
And I think it was just
intended to be a one shot.

1023
00:47:42,555 --> 00:47:45,950
Evidently it was
a popular module.

1024
00:47:45,993 --> 00:47:48,213
As time went on, they decided,

1025
00:47:48,256 --> 00:47:49,867
"Well,
let's do a whole campaign."

1026
00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:53,131
You know,
Ravenloft the game setting.

1027
00:47:53,174 --> 00:47:56,525
I think what Clyde Caldwell
really added to the D&Dlexicon

1028
00:47:56,569 --> 00:47:59,964
is his sensuality
for the character.

1029
00:48:00,007 --> 00:48:02,227
Clyde painted all women sexy.

1030
00:48:02,270 --> 00:48:04,838
If he painted a nun,
if it was a module about a nun

1031
00:48:04,882 --> 00:48:06,971
she'd have been the sexiest nun
you ever saw.

1032
00:48:07,014 --> 00:48:09,887
The female characters
just always appealed to me

1033
00:48:09,930 --> 00:48:12,541
more than the male characters
even though I didn't mind

1034
00:48:12,585 --> 00:48:15,457
painting male characters,
either, but, actually, uh,

1035
00:48:15,501 --> 00:48:19,113
TSR was pretty conservative
about the female characters

1036
00:48:19,157 --> 00:48:22,160
and they thought,
you know, that their audience

1037
00:48:22,203 --> 00:48:24,945
was 14-year-old boys.

1038
00:48:24,989 --> 00:48:26,904
But for some reason
they didn't think

1039
00:48:26,947 --> 00:48:29,384
14 year-old boys
liked sexy women.

1040
00:48:29,428 --> 00:48:32,910
[Hensley]
She's a smooth, muscular,

1041
00:48:32,953 --> 00:48:36,304
-but still weirdly...
-[man] Feminized.

1042
00:48:36,348 --> 00:48:39,612
[Hensley]
...bodaciously endowed.

1043
00:48:39,655 --> 00:48:43,311
Yeah, she's like
an other-worldly creature

1044
00:48:43,355 --> 00:48:47,620
because it doesn't make sense
that she could even stand.

1045
00:48:47,663 --> 00:48:51,145
I grew up with these artists
who would draw women

1046
00:48:51,189 --> 00:48:54,409
in these big-bosomed, like,
little bikinis

1047
00:48:54,453 --> 00:48:56,281
and I didn't think
anything was wrong with it

1048
00:48:56,324 --> 00:48:57,760
because
there's nothing wrong with it.

1049
00:48:57,804 --> 00:49:00,807
Occasionally
I would get a little criticism

1050
00:49:00,850 --> 00:49:04,071
for maybe not having someone
in full armor

1051
00:49:04,115 --> 00:49:05,420
and that sort of thing.

1052
00:49:05,464 --> 00:49:08,597
It didn't cover
a lot of vital areas.

1053
00:49:08,641 --> 00:49:10,948
Mostly nipples, I guess,
'cause, I mean--

1054
00:49:10,991 --> 00:49:15,343
I was painting for a game
that had magic.

1055
00:49:15,387 --> 00:49:17,824
You didn't need
armor for protection.

1056
00:49:17,867 --> 00:49:20,609
You could protect yourself
without it.

1057
00:49:20,653 --> 00:49:23,961
I don't want armor.
I want to have a wizard

1058
00:49:24,004 --> 00:49:27,007
in a bikini,
with, like, wrist cuffs

1059
00:49:27,051 --> 00:49:30,184
and, you know,
like a magical shield.

1060
00:49:30,228 --> 00:49:34,232
Like I don't need armor.
I have brain armor.

1061
00:49:34,275 --> 00:49:35,624
[laughs]

1062
00:49:35,668 --> 00:49:38,323
Each of the artists
did four paintings

1063
00:49:38,366 --> 00:49:39,977
in the Dragonlancecycle.

1064
00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:42,327
So when Clyde was doing,
like, Goldmoon,

1065
00:49:42,370 --> 00:49:44,982
I came into the art room
and I saw Clyde's drawing

1066
00:49:45,025 --> 00:49:46,766
and I burst into tears.

1067
00:49:46,809 --> 00:49:50,683
At some point I decided I wanted
to paint her with bare legs.

1068
00:49:50,726 --> 00:49:53,512
She cried a while.
She's looking at it and I said,

1069
00:49:53,555 --> 00:49:55,514
"Margaret is something wrong?"
She says, "Yes...

1070
00:49:55,557 --> 00:50:00,823
this is not Goldmoon.
Goldmoon is holy, she's not."

1071
00:50:00,867 --> 00:50:02,695
I don't know
what words she used.

1072
00:50:02,738 --> 00:50:04,392
"She's not this." You know?
[chuckles]

1073
00:50:04,436 --> 00:50:09,267
After that, Goldmoon always
had pants on in paintings.

1074
00:50:11,095 --> 00:50:13,706
♪

1075
00:50:13,749 --> 00:50:15,925
Of the group of artists
that TSR brought in

1076
00:50:15,969 --> 00:50:17,492
in the early '80s--
Easley, Elmore,

1077
00:50:17,536 --> 00:50:20,539
Caldwell, Parkinson,
I've had numerous people

1078
00:50:20,582 --> 00:50:25,631
and numerous artists tell me
that Keith Parkinson

1079
00:50:25,674 --> 00:50:28,547
was actually
the most influential.

1080
00:50:28,590 --> 00:50:33,595
And I have also had numerous
people argue with me

1081
00:50:33,639 --> 00:50:36,729
that Keith Parkinson was
the most accomplished painter

1082
00:50:36,772 --> 00:50:40,602
of those four artists.
And, in fact, I've had

1083
00:50:40,646 --> 00:50:43,692
some of those four artists
tell me that Keith Parkinson

1084
00:50:43,736 --> 00:50:45,172
was the most
accomplished painter.

1085
00:50:45,216 --> 00:50:47,696
He died way too young

1086
00:50:47,740 --> 00:50:49,785
um, and he was--
he was an amazing artist.

1087
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:54,573
He just picked up
like gangbusters man.

1088
00:50:54,616 --> 00:50:58,098
I mean he went at it
and he had a voraciousness

1089
00:50:58,142 --> 00:51:00,579
to him that he just wanted
to learn, learn, learn,

1090
00:51:00,622 --> 00:51:02,320
learn, learn
and he did, man.

1091
00:51:02,363 --> 00:51:04,626
He just--
by leaps and bounds.

1092
00:51:04,670 --> 00:51:09,066
Everything he did looked better
than the thing he did before.

1093
00:51:09,109 --> 00:51:12,199
He got to learn from some--
I mean...

1094
00:51:12,243 --> 00:51:14,549
Elmore, Easley, Caldwell.

1095
00:51:14,593 --> 00:51:15,681
Like, getting to learn
from those guys?

1096
00:51:15,724 --> 00:51:17,117
That's pretty great.

1097
00:51:17,161 --> 00:51:20,033
I was showing Keith.
I said, "Look, if you

1098
00:51:20,077 --> 00:51:23,471
have a hard time drawing an arm
as a single, get a model.

1099
00:51:23,515 --> 00:51:27,519
You know, as long as your model
and you take a picture of it

1100
00:51:27,562 --> 00:51:29,912
and look at it and draw it,
I said, "It's yours."

1101
00:51:29,956 --> 00:51:33,133
So what we're looking at here
are a bunch of reference photos

1102
00:51:33,177 --> 00:51:37,790
mostly from the 1980s
that my dad and Larry Elmore

1103
00:51:37,833 --> 00:51:39,835
and a bunch of other,
kind of, TSR alum--

1104
00:51:39,879 --> 00:51:42,577
you'll see Diesel
in a few of them,

1105
00:51:42,621 --> 00:51:44,840
took to help prepare
for their paintings.

1106
00:51:44,884 --> 00:51:49,062
For this one we've got a paper
towel roll being a flute.

1107
00:51:49,106 --> 00:51:51,934
Over here we've got
an X-Wingbeing a laser gun.

1108
00:51:51,978 --> 00:51:54,023
Riding a park bench
like a horse.

1109
00:51:54,067 --> 00:51:55,764
Probably a lot
of confused onlookers

1110
00:51:55,808 --> 00:51:57,244
while they are doing this stuff.

1111
00:51:57,288 --> 00:51:59,464
I think it's a great
snapshot, literally,

1112
00:51:59,507 --> 00:52:02,989
into the history of this
that you don't really see

1113
00:52:03,032 --> 00:52:05,470
-this side of it.
-You could see that he obviously

1114
00:52:05,513 --> 00:52:09,256
studied classical painters
because he's able to bring

1115
00:52:09,300 --> 00:52:13,130
this incredible,
realistic world

1116
00:52:13,173 --> 00:52:15,480
to a convincing presentation.

1117
00:52:15,523 --> 00:52:18,135
He had
this innate color sense.

1118
00:52:18,178 --> 00:52:22,835
I don't think he could explain
what he was doing with color.

1119
00:52:22,878 --> 00:52:25,751
I kept thinking like,
"I got a box of crayons.

1120
00:52:25,794 --> 00:52:28,362
I only had eight crayons,
you know?"

1121
00:52:28,406 --> 00:52:31,496
Whereas Keith seemed like
he had a box of 182 crayons.

1122
00:52:31,539 --> 00:52:34,107
[Parkinson] So my dad's take
on color was that

1123
00:52:34,151 --> 00:52:37,197
color isn't blue.
It isn't red. It isn't green.

1124
00:52:37,241 --> 00:52:39,286
It's a mixture of,
you know, everything.

1125
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:41,767
So his palette,
if you looked at it,

1126
00:52:41,810 --> 00:52:43,812
would be, you know, glob of this
glob of that, glob of that.

1127
00:52:43,856 --> 00:52:47,076
And then just mush
of whatever this was.

1128
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:50,036
It was referred to as the
Parkinson Shit Brown usually

1129
00:52:50,079 --> 00:52:51,516
because that's exactly
what it looked like,

1130
00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:53,300
but then when you put it up
on the canvas,

1131
00:52:53,344 --> 00:52:56,303
"Oh it's a tree.
That's the color of bark."

1132
00:52:56,347 --> 00:52:57,739
That is--I mean it worked.

1133
00:52:57,783 --> 00:53:00,002
[Diterlizzi]
I think Keith Parkinson

1134
00:53:00,046 --> 00:53:02,266
came from
a place of storytelling.

1135
00:53:02,309 --> 00:53:04,224
There was
always a sense of story

1136
00:53:04,268 --> 00:53:07,271
and narrative and everything
that Keith painted.

1137
00:53:07,314 --> 00:53:10,796
They're all action shots.
They're all events transpiring.

1138
00:53:10,839 --> 00:53:14,191
There is an action happening
and this is a freeze frame

1139
00:53:14,234 --> 00:53:17,106
of--of what's going on
in that moment.

1140
00:53:17,150 --> 00:53:19,413
And a great example
of that would be, uh,

1141
00:53:19,457 --> 00:53:21,285
Parkinson's
What Do You Mean We're Lost?

1142
00:53:21,328 --> 00:53:24,636
That has three draconians
arguing in the snow

1143
00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:26,942
with trees behind them
and there's no road

1144
00:53:26,986 --> 00:53:29,249
to be found anywhere.
And they're all like--

1145
00:53:29,293 --> 00:53:31,904
It looks like a family pulled
over on the side of the road

1146
00:53:31,947 --> 00:53:34,080
during a car trip
all just yelling at each other.

1147
00:53:34,123 --> 00:53:36,300
It's popular with a lot
of people, myself included,

1148
00:53:36,343 --> 00:53:40,086
because I think it kind of
shows these terrific,

1149
00:53:40,129 --> 00:53:43,263
fantastical, fierce creatures
in a situation

1150
00:53:43,307 --> 00:53:45,439
that you wouldn't necessarily
picture them being in.

1151
00:53:45,483 --> 00:53:47,963
Which is lost
in the snow and cold,

1152
00:53:48,007 --> 00:53:49,878
uh, and just grumpy
and angry about it.

1153
00:53:49,922 --> 00:53:52,620
He had,
first and foremost,

1154
00:53:52,664 --> 00:53:54,840
probably a fantastic sense
of humor.

1155
00:53:54,883 --> 00:53:56,711
He loved
to play practical jokes.

1156
00:53:56,755 --> 00:53:59,192
I put all those paintings up
on the wall

1157
00:53:59,236 --> 00:54:01,063
and went home that night

1158
00:54:01,107 --> 00:54:03,544
and when I came back in
the next morning,

1159
00:54:03,588 --> 00:54:06,025
all my paintings
were turned upside down.

1160
00:54:06,068 --> 00:54:08,288
I was gonna start painting
and I looked over here,

1161
00:54:08,332 --> 00:54:11,335
well, my palette was gone...

1162
00:54:11,378 --> 00:54:14,468
my brushes were gone.

1163
00:54:14,512 --> 00:54:16,427
Everything was gone!

1164
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:18,907
So I was totally exasperated
and I just slumped back

1165
00:54:18,951 --> 00:54:21,736
on my chair, [sighs].
I looked up...

1166
00:54:21,780 --> 00:54:25,305
All my stuff
was on the ceiling.

1167
00:54:25,349 --> 00:54:28,395
The phone was on there,
there's my brushes.

1168
00:54:28,439 --> 00:54:31,180
Everything was
all on the ceiling.

1169
00:54:31,224 --> 00:54:33,922
It's a pretty amazing feeling
knowing and seeing the impact

1170
00:54:33,966 --> 00:54:38,100
my dad has had on the industry,
but, more specifically,

1171
00:54:38,144 --> 00:54:40,581
individual artists.
Every kid wants to hear

1172
00:54:40,625 --> 00:54:42,453
his dad's awesome, right?

1173
00:54:42,496 --> 00:54:44,324
But I've a lot of people
coming up telling me,

1174
00:54:44,368 --> 00:54:46,239
you know, as a grown adult
that my dad was awesome

1175
00:54:46,283 --> 00:54:48,110
and he's been gone 12 years now.

1176
00:54:48,154 --> 00:54:49,677
And the fact that people
are still saying

1177
00:54:49,721 --> 00:54:52,158
that kind of stuff
when nothing new has come out

1178
00:54:52,201 --> 00:54:55,814
in over a decade,
uh, that's--that's fantastic.

1179
00:54:55,857 --> 00:54:58,120
And I think speaks to what
he was able to do

1180
00:54:58,164 --> 00:55:01,123
-with time that he had.
-I think what the worst thing

1181
00:55:01,167 --> 00:55:03,300
about it--
not only that he's missed,

1182
00:55:03,343 --> 00:55:05,040
but the paintings
he would have done...

1183
00:55:05,084 --> 00:55:07,869
we'll never see
because before he died

1184
00:55:07,913 --> 00:55:10,785
he was doing
some fantastic paintings

1185
00:55:10,829 --> 00:55:14,136
and he was only
going to get better.

1186
00:55:16,182 --> 00:55:20,969
By the time you get
into the mid-to-late '80s

1187
00:55:21,013 --> 00:55:24,277
you really start
to reach a point

1188
00:55:24,321 --> 00:55:27,672
where, to an ever increasing
number of people,

1189
00:55:27,715 --> 00:55:33,199
when they think of fantasy art,
fantasy imagery,

1190
00:55:33,242 --> 00:55:36,594
they start to think of TSR.

1191
00:55:36,637 --> 00:55:39,423
They start to think of D&D.

1192
00:55:39,466 --> 00:55:43,078
People that
don't even play D&D,

1193
00:55:43,122 --> 00:55:45,298
you know, when you ask them,

1194
00:55:45,342 --> 00:55:47,126
"What does fantasy art
look like?"

1195
00:55:47,169 --> 00:55:49,694
They'll point at
Lord Soth's Charge

1196
00:55:49,737 --> 00:55:53,350
even if they have no idea
who Lord Soth is

1197
00:55:53,393 --> 00:55:55,177
or anything about Dragonlance

1198
00:55:55,221 --> 00:55:57,005
or anything
about the world at all.

1199
00:55:57,049 --> 00:55:58,920
[Caldwell]
In the case ofDragonlance

1200
00:55:58,964 --> 00:56:02,141
I really had a sense that
that was gonna be a big thing,

1201
00:56:02,184 --> 00:56:04,099
you know,
right from the start.

1202
00:56:04,143 --> 00:56:07,407
The Art of the Dragonlance
that's one of my very first

1203
00:56:07,451 --> 00:56:11,150
art books I've got.
As you can see that covers off,

1204
00:56:11,193 --> 00:56:13,500
third page is almost coming off.

1205
00:56:13,544 --> 00:56:16,068
It was well-worn,
looked through

1206
00:56:16,111 --> 00:56:18,940
hundreds of times, you know.

1207
00:56:18,984 --> 00:56:22,074
I just loved studying
the paintings.

1208
00:56:22,117 --> 00:56:27,209
Here's Raistlin in his lab
with all the potions

1209
00:56:27,253 --> 00:56:29,603
and everything.
Just beautiful piece.

1210
00:56:29,647 --> 00:56:31,518
[Elmore] You got to know
the characters.

1211
00:56:31,562 --> 00:56:33,302
After a while you knew 'em.

1212
00:56:33,346 --> 00:56:35,348
They might look exactly alike
in each painting,

1213
00:56:35,392 --> 00:56:37,176
but you knew who they were.

1214
00:56:37,219 --> 00:56:38,960
So it gave you a familiarity.

1215
00:56:39,004 --> 00:56:41,223
When they're the one on
the book covers, module covers.

1216
00:56:41,267 --> 00:56:43,748
[Easley] They didn't impose
hard deadlines on us.

1217
00:56:43,791 --> 00:56:46,185
You know, they really let us
paint on these

1218
00:56:46,228 --> 00:56:47,969
until, you know,
we were satisfied with them.

1219
00:56:48,013 --> 00:56:50,276
So we were just really put
everything we could into them.

1220
00:56:50,319 --> 00:56:52,844
[LaForce] Dragonlance
was really the thing

1221
00:56:52,887 --> 00:56:55,150
that propelled specific style.

1222
00:56:55,194 --> 00:56:58,371
So you had Dragonlance
and Birthright and Dark Sun

1223
00:56:58,415 --> 00:57:00,460
and Planescape
and all that stuff.

1224
00:57:00,504 --> 00:57:03,245
That's when we were
really sitting down

1225
00:57:03,289 --> 00:57:07,772
and making, uh,
style guides or at least

1226
00:57:07,815 --> 00:57:09,687
a cohesive look to a world.

1227
00:57:09,730 --> 00:57:12,907
Normally what would happen
is once the designer

1228
00:57:12,951 --> 00:57:15,127
and the editor decide
on what they want

1229
00:57:15,170 --> 00:57:17,869
for their product,
and, hopefully, at that point

1230
00:57:17,912 --> 00:57:20,785
they have a storyboard
enough where they know

1231
00:57:20,828 --> 00:57:24,353
they need three
quarter-page illustrations

1232
00:57:24,397 --> 00:57:27,182
and two half-page illustrations
and one full-page.

1233
00:57:27,226 --> 00:57:29,707
They will come up with
an art order

1234
00:57:29,750 --> 00:57:31,448
or an art suggestion.

1235
00:57:31,491 --> 00:57:35,277
And it is important
that the art description

1236
00:57:35,321 --> 00:57:39,934
is clear, uh, that
it's-- creates a hierarchy

1237
00:57:39,978 --> 00:57:43,938
for the artist to latch onto
about what is important

1238
00:57:43,982 --> 00:57:48,116
versus what is not important
and to remember

1239
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,817
that you're basically getting
one snapshot.

1240
00:57:52,860 --> 00:57:55,907
Oftentimes I think the editors
when they would describe

1241
00:57:55,950 --> 00:57:59,476
a scene they wanted to see
oftentimes I got the impression

1242
00:57:59,519 --> 00:58:03,349
they were sometimes describing
a five-minute movie trailer.

1243
00:58:03,392 --> 00:58:07,353
"We've got this thief
and they're jumping off

1244
00:58:07,396 --> 00:58:09,181
this roof
and they're bashing this guy

1245
00:58:09,224 --> 00:58:10,922
as they are falling down
to the thing and then

1246
00:58:10,965 --> 00:58:13,533
they're tumbling over."
And I'm like, "Guys, guys, guys.

1247
00:58:13,577 --> 00:58:15,448
It's a single frame."

1248
00:58:15,492 --> 00:58:17,624
I always actually liked it
when I got difficult,

1249
00:58:17,668 --> 00:58:19,408
and I still do like it
when I get

1250
00:58:19,452 --> 00:58:22,237
quite challenging briefs
because that's part of the fun

1251
00:58:22,281 --> 00:58:25,414
of being an illustrator really;
it's about problem solving.

1252
00:58:25,458 --> 00:58:29,201
Sometimes it was
even frustratingly simple.

1253
00:58:29,244 --> 00:58:32,421
Like, "I really wish
you would have given me

1254
00:58:32,465 --> 00:58:35,903
more information rather than
having to make me guess."

1255
00:58:35,947 --> 00:58:39,646
We had occasions where we didn't
even really have art directors.

1256
00:58:39,690 --> 00:58:43,650
You know, we were just kind of--
and we were kinda divvying.

1257
00:58:43,694 --> 00:58:45,217
And they would give us
a big batch of stuff

1258
00:58:45,260 --> 00:58:48,133
and we were divvying up
the jobs among ourselves.

1259
00:58:48,176 --> 00:58:51,440
Each one of us got the,
you know, we would roll dice

1260
00:58:51,484 --> 00:58:54,661
-to see who got to pick first.
-Clyde Caldwell wanted

1261
00:58:54,705 --> 00:58:56,184
all the ones
with chicks in them.

1262
00:58:56,228 --> 00:58:58,317
He was the--wanted to be
the woman painter.

1263
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,145
So he would fight
over all those.

1264
00:59:00,188 --> 00:59:04,628
So I guess it depended on
how... how popular the piece--

1265
00:59:04,671 --> 00:59:07,892
the--the product line was,
what the elements

1266
00:59:07,935 --> 00:59:11,112
of the painting were,
and if it had chicks in it.

1267
00:59:11,156 --> 00:59:13,898
And then the stuff
that we couldn't handle in-house

1268
00:59:13,941 --> 00:59:17,641
we actually had to
call freelancers ourselves

1269
00:59:17,684 --> 00:59:19,730
and coordinate them
and use them on the job

1270
00:59:19,773 --> 00:59:21,166
and, you know, do all
the dirty work

1271
00:59:21,209 --> 00:59:22,950
that an art director
would do also.

1272
00:59:22,994 --> 00:59:25,518
And their Rolodex consisted

1273
00:59:25,562 --> 00:59:27,868
of a four-foot square section

1274
00:59:27,912 --> 00:59:32,612
of a top flat file
for art was all stored

1275
00:59:32,656 --> 00:59:36,442
and the top of that cabinet
was Post-it Notes

1276
00:59:36,485 --> 00:59:39,880
and three-by-five note cards
and scraps of paper

1277
00:59:39,924 --> 00:59:43,101
with artists names
and numbers on them.

1278
00:59:43,144 --> 00:59:45,582
I basically stood there
while they were all working

1279
00:59:45,625 --> 00:59:48,628
and just would call out
a name and say,

1280
00:59:48,672 --> 00:59:51,675
"Do we keep this guy?"
And they'd say, "Yes."

1281
00:59:51,718 --> 00:59:53,677
And then I'd make an index card
and we started

1282
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,635
their actual Rolodex.

1283
00:59:55,679 --> 00:59:58,464
[Diterlizzi]
So I took an existing module

1284
00:59:58,507 --> 01:00:02,294
and pasted my artwork
into the module

1285
01:00:02,337 --> 01:00:03,861
and then made a print out.

1286
01:00:03,904 --> 01:00:06,472
This being a smaller version
of the actual print out

1287
01:00:06,515 --> 01:00:10,432
and sent this to TSR
back in September of 1992.

1288
01:00:10,476 --> 01:00:14,001
A lot of it I would look at
and send back

1289
01:00:14,045 --> 01:00:15,960
to the artist with a nice,
little letter saying,

1290
01:00:16,003 --> 01:00:17,526
you know,
"Thanks, but no thanks."

1291
01:00:17,570 --> 01:00:19,441
And she's like,
"We loved your stuff."

1292
01:00:19,485 --> 01:00:21,095
And I'm like,
"You loved my stuff?"

1293
01:00:21,139 --> 01:00:23,750
I'm like, "But you sent
a letter that said, you know,

1294
01:00:23,794 --> 01:00:25,273
you didn't like it."
And she's like

1295
01:00:25,317 --> 01:00:28,015
"Well, you know, all you sent
were like...

1296
01:00:28,059 --> 01:00:31,149
floating images
of monsters and people.

1297
01:00:31,192 --> 01:00:32,716
Like, they weren't
doing anything. They're just--

1298
01:00:32,759 --> 01:00:34,195
they were just standing there."

1299
01:00:34,239 --> 01:00:37,024
There's a Medusa
standing here doing nothing

1300
01:00:37,068 --> 01:00:39,766
and a couple of knolls looking
around also doing nothing."

1301
01:00:39,810 --> 01:00:41,986
They liked the way I drew,
but the artwork

1302
01:00:42,029 --> 01:00:43,683
was clearly I was--
I was doing nothing.

1303
01:00:43,727 --> 01:00:47,687
By the end of that year
I was given my first assignment

1304
01:00:47,731 --> 01:00:50,255
from TSR which was
a huge box set

1305
01:00:50,298 --> 01:00:52,649
called Dragon Mountain
which I remember because

1306
01:00:52,692 --> 01:00:55,477
Jennell Jaquays did this
amazing painting

1307
01:00:55,521 --> 01:00:57,654
of a red dragon on top
of a mountain top.

1308
01:00:57,697 --> 01:01:00,091
My most famous piece,
Dragon Mountain,

1309
01:01:00,134 --> 01:01:01,745
was done as a freelance piece.

1310
01:01:01,788 --> 01:01:06,706
Around 1990 I had a sea change
in the way I painted.

1311
01:01:06,750 --> 01:01:09,143
Suddenly I went from
painting in one manner

1312
01:01:09,187 --> 01:01:12,799
to something that was more
rich and colorful and vibrant

1313
01:01:12,843 --> 01:01:14,888
and people at TSR noticed that.

1314
01:01:14,932 --> 01:01:17,586
And suddenly I started getting
more cover work from them.

1315
01:01:17,630 --> 01:01:22,026
Both in the magazines and on,
eventually, the products.

1316
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:24,898
[Taylor] Freelancers,
they bring a vast amount

1317
01:01:24,942 --> 01:01:28,249
of difference
within the course of a product.

1318
01:01:28,293 --> 01:01:30,208
And you can see a lot
of really cool things

1319
01:01:30,251 --> 01:01:33,211
with people having cool, new
ideas about different things,

1320
01:01:33,254 --> 01:01:36,040
but you still need a cohesive
Art Direction in there

1321
01:01:36,083 --> 01:01:38,042
in a way that you're gonna
put the product forward.

1322
01:01:38,085 --> 01:01:39,783
And, I think, that's something
that Dungeons & Dragons

1323
01:01:39,826 --> 01:01:41,349
has always been able to do.

1324
01:01:41,393 --> 01:01:43,221
Make a product,
make a product line,

1325
01:01:43,264 --> 01:01:45,397
-and we identify it.
-In the role of an art director

1326
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,704
on D&D,
our biggest joke is

1327
01:01:47,747 --> 01:01:50,010
we used to sit here and say
your subtitle was

1328
01:01:50,054 --> 01:01:53,579
"Art Director, Cat Wrangler"
because...

1329
01:01:53,622 --> 01:01:57,496
in reality your whole job
was about trying to match up

1330
01:01:57,539 --> 01:01:59,716
all these different
opposing forces.

1331
01:01:59,759 --> 01:02:02,719
So you had the R&D guys
who had a vision of

1332
01:02:02,762 --> 01:02:04,459
what the art books
should be, look like

1333
01:02:04,503 --> 01:02:06,853
and then you've got
the brand guys

1334
01:02:06,897 --> 01:02:09,029
and the marketing guys
who all have this vision

1335
01:02:09,073 --> 01:02:11,075
of how it's got to fit
into the world

1336
01:02:11,118 --> 01:02:12,772
from a marketing
and business standpoint.

1337
01:02:12,816 --> 01:02:14,948
And then you've got all
the partners that you deal with

1338
01:02:14,992 --> 01:02:17,603
who have to be able
to communicate the art with

1339
01:02:17,646 --> 01:02:19,997
so that they can use it
for licensed products

1340
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:22,042
and stuff like that.

1341
01:02:22,086 --> 01:02:24,131
And then you've got the artists
themselves where you're trying

1342
01:02:24,175 --> 01:02:27,569
to take the stuff
that the guys in R&D want

1343
01:02:27,613 --> 01:02:30,007
and meld that together with
the brand and marketing stuff

1344
01:02:30,050 --> 01:02:31,835
and create a piece of artwork
that fulfills on

1345
01:02:31,878 --> 01:02:34,315
all their needs, but is also
very useful for the book,

1346
01:02:34,359 --> 01:02:37,057
and, oh, yes by the way,
makes the fans very happy.

1347
01:02:37,101 --> 01:02:38,972
You went from
generic fantasy setting

1348
01:02:39,016 --> 01:02:42,541
to, uh, to suddenly having
this myriad of worlds--

1349
01:02:42,584 --> 01:02:44,412
of different realms.
You know, you had Greyhawk,

1350
01:02:44,456 --> 01:02:46,501
Forgotten Realms,
Dark Sun.

1351
01:02:46,545 --> 01:02:49,113
There's a distinct
definitive feeling

1352
01:02:49,156 --> 01:02:50,767
that's different
between all of those.

1353
01:02:50,810 --> 01:02:52,638
And that's all drawn from
that creative team.

1354
01:02:52,681 --> 01:02:54,640
From those creative forces
behind it

1355
01:02:54,683 --> 01:02:56,816
and that creative team
chose the correct artists

1356
01:02:56,860 --> 01:02:59,993
-to represent that.
-I love finding...

1357
01:03:00,037 --> 01:03:05,129
the perfect piece
to give to the perfect artist.

1358
01:03:05,172 --> 01:03:07,740
The first thing
you have to decide is

1359
01:03:07,784 --> 01:03:10,612
"What kind of worlds
do you want?"

1360
01:03:10,656 --> 01:03:13,877
Um...and define some goals

1361
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,749
and then you start,
uh...

1362
01:03:16,793 --> 01:03:20,318
working with artists
that can execute

1363
01:03:20,361 --> 01:03:22,537
on that and bring
that vision to life.

1364
01:03:22,581 --> 01:03:24,801
[Brom] WithDark Sun they wanted
to try something different.

1365
01:03:24,844 --> 01:03:28,152
They wanted a strong look
and feel to identify the world

1366
01:03:28,195 --> 01:03:31,372
and to do that they decided
to use one artist

1367
01:03:31,416 --> 01:03:34,593
to establish that.
Luckily, I had been spending

1368
01:03:34,636 --> 01:03:37,030
a lot of my extra time
doing my own paintings

1369
01:03:37,074 --> 01:03:39,337
and these I had brought
into TSR and put on the wall.

1370
01:03:39,380 --> 01:03:40,773
One of the paintings
I did was this

1371
01:03:40,817 --> 01:03:42,731
muscular woman
on a rock.

1372
01:03:42,775 --> 01:03:46,257
It was Neeva with the wings
and the mask and the top.

1373
01:03:46,300 --> 01:03:48,825
Uh, little did I know
that they were creating

1374
01:03:48,868 --> 01:03:51,610
a new world called Dark Sun
and they were looking for

1375
01:03:51,653 --> 01:03:53,742
a completely unique look.

1376
01:03:53,786 --> 01:03:55,483
They came in,
saw that painting,

1377
01:03:55,527 --> 01:03:57,137
and they just thought,
"This is perfect."

1378
01:03:57,181 --> 01:03:58,835
I don't think
it's an exaggeration to say that

1379
01:03:58,878 --> 01:04:00,445
Dark Sunis Brom, you know?

1380
01:04:00,488 --> 01:04:02,273
Without Brom there would be
no Dark Sunsetting.

1381
01:04:02,316 --> 01:04:05,145
[Brom] It's interesting
'cause to this day

1382
01:04:05,189 --> 01:04:08,061
I have people come up
and say, "Dark Sun is why.

1383
01:04:08,105 --> 01:04:09,846
Your art is why
I bought this product.

1384
01:04:09,889 --> 01:04:12,109
It's what got me
into Dungeons & Dragons.

1385
01:04:12,152 --> 01:04:15,373
Brom as a person was a goofball.

1386
01:04:15,416 --> 01:04:18,550
I mean, he was always,
always funny.

1387
01:04:18,593 --> 01:04:22,293
Diesel, in particular,
would have a Halloween party

1388
01:04:22,336 --> 01:04:25,600
and all the creatives
would try to outdo each other

1389
01:04:25,644 --> 01:04:29,735
-with their costumes.
-[LaForce] Brom came dressed

1390
01:04:29,778 --> 01:04:32,651
as Jeff Easley.

1391
01:04:32,694 --> 01:04:35,132
Complete with
theTV Guide in his pocket.

1392
01:04:35,175 --> 01:04:37,525
[Easley] He had on this,
you know, goofy, bald-head wig

1393
01:04:37,569 --> 01:04:40,006
with the hair sticking out
and glasses on.

1394
01:04:40,050 --> 01:04:41,878
I thought he was
like a clown or something.

1395
01:04:41,921 --> 01:04:43,314
[Brom]
And I show up at the party.

1396
01:04:43,357 --> 01:04:45,577
So he's as Satan
and I'm as Jeff

1397
01:04:45,620 --> 01:04:47,927
and it's kind of
a Good Jeff Bad Jeff.

1398
01:04:47,971 --> 01:04:49,668
[Easley] I just wish
I had known beforehand

1399
01:04:49,711 --> 01:04:52,410
that he was going to do that
I probably would've...

1400
01:04:52,453 --> 01:04:54,891
uh, retaliated.
[chuckles]

1401
01:04:54,934 --> 01:04:57,806
A lot of times,
because we did have,

1402
01:04:57,850 --> 01:05:00,940
like, a particular artist
for a particular world,

1403
01:05:00,984 --> 01:05:04,596
they were really involved
with the designer and the editor

1404
01:05:04,639 --> 01:05:06,076
in the beginning.
Especially for something

1405
01:05:06,119 --> 01:05:08,252
like Planescape.
When that came around, I mean,

1406
01:05:08,295 --> 01:05:11,690
you really remember
the artist being a big part

1407
01:05:11,733 --> 01:05:14,171
of all that design
right from the beginning.

1408
01:05:14,214 --> 01:05:18,131
[Murin] Planescape was just
so different.

1409
01:05:18,175 --> 01:05:21,352
It was not
typical medieval fantasy.

1410
01:05:21,395 --> 01:05:23,006
It was not
a regular fantasy world.

1411
01:05:23,049 --> 01:05:26,835
It was interplanar.
The art was fresh.

1412
01:05:26,879 --> 01:05:29,229
I--At this point...

1413
01:05:29,273 --> 01:05:31,753
was more confident
than I'd ever been

1414
01:05:31,797 --> 01:05:34,191
with my illustration for TSR.

1415
01:05:34,234 --> 01:05:38,717
So it was a chance,
I felt, to really shine

1416
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,111
and rise to the occasion
because the other thing

1417
01:05:41,154 --> 01:05:43,330
they told me was
"LikeDark Sun,

1418
01:05:43,374 --> 01:05:45,680
you will be
the only illustrator

1419
01:05:45,724 --> 01:05:49,032
on these books.
And at least for the first year

1420
01:05:49,075 --> 01:05:51,251
as we launch the series,
we want you to be

1421
01:05:51,295 --> 01:05:53,862
the only artist
for the core box set,

1422
01:05:53,906 --> 01:05:56,517
for the monster book,
and for the first couple

1423
01:05:56,561 --> 01:05:58,215
of modules"
I think that came out.

1424
01:05:58,258 --> 01:05:59,999
This is one of
the mercy killers.

1425
01:06:00,043 --> 01:06:02,045
This would've been from
the original campaign

1426
01:06:02,088 --> 01:06:05,483
box setting.
This is all designed

1427
01:06:05,526 --> 01:06:08,703
from Dana Knutson's concept art
that would have been

1428
01:06:08,747 --> 01:06:10,488
done early on for the game.

1429
01:06:10,531 --> 01:06:15,188
The lead game designer,
Zeb Cook, um, he was the one

1430
01:06:15,232 --> 01:06:20,715
who said, "Well, we want a kind
of a medieval world, but..."

1431
01:06:20,759 --> 01:06:23,327
He said, "We've got
to make it different."

1432
01:06:23,370 --> 01:06:27,157
And I was kind of like,
"Well, you know, what do I do,

1433
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,594
you know, to make it different?"
And all he said

1434
01:06:29,637 --> 01:06:33,598
were the two words,
"Make it spiky and bumpy."

1435
01:06:33,641 --> 01:06:35,339
And that was it.

1436
01:06:35,382 --> 01:06:38,472
This is called The Mortuary
and these were portals

1437
01:06:38,516 --> 01:06:40,605
that actually went
to different planes.

1438
01:06:40,648 --> 01:06:43,260
Kind of hidden back there,
but they're there.

1439
01:06:43,303 --> 01:06:45,392
And then I just came up
with this creepy look

1440
01:06:45,436 --> 01:06:47,568
with some of the spears
and stuff sticking out.

1441
01:06:47,612 --> 01:06:51,746
When everybody saw this one,
this pretty much sold the line.

1442
01:06:51,790 --> 01:06:54,880
They really wanted to go
in this direction.

1443
01:06:54,923 --> 01:06:57,056
We needed to come up with
a logo for Planescape.

1444
01:06:57,100 --> 01:06:58,971
And so I came up with
this idea which is the gates

1445
01:07:00,755 --> 01:07:03,410
and the bat wings and the owner,
Lorraine Williams,

1446
01:07:03,454 --> 01:07:06,718
actually liked this logo
so much she thought it was

1447
01:07:06,761 --> 01:07:10,026
actually too good for,
uh, to be used on Planescape

1448
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:12,245
so she wanted
it used on Ravenloft.

1449
01:07:12,289 --> 01:07:14,813
So we switched it over
to Ravenloftand I don't think

1450
01:07:14,856 --> 01:07:18,382
it ever was used, but we had
to come up with a new idea

1451
01:07:18,425 --> 01:07:20,906
and that's where we used
one of the faction symbols

1452
01:07:20,949 --> 01:07:22,168
which was The Lady of Pain.

1453
01:07:22,212 --> 01:07:24,518
I had done
some faction symbols.

1454
01:07:24,562 --> 01:07:27,173
These are these symbols
for different clan groups

1455
01:07:27,217 --> 01:07:30,394
and stuff and one of them
was this woman's head

1456
01:07:30,437 --> 01:07:34,093
with the blades coming out.
She has this dead smile,

1457
01:07:34,137 --> 01:07:37,227
the eyes are just, you know,
they stare back at you.

1458
01:07:37,270 --> 01:07:39,925
Very mysterious, very creepy.

1459
01:07:39,968 --> 01:07:42,058
When we got to Planescape,
there wasn't a lot

1460
01:07:42,101 --> 01:07:44,103
of those classic monsters
in Planescape.

1461
01:07:44,147 --> 01:07:46,105
There were some secondary
monsters that you might have

1462
01:07:46,149 --> 01:07:48,803
seen in laterMonster Manuals,
but none of the real, big,

1463
01:07:48,847 --> 01:07:51,719
core monsters were there
and I felt like I had

1464
01:07:51,763 --> 01:07:55,332
the freedom
to kind of go nuts.

1465
01:07:55,375 --> 01:07:57,986
[Babbey] Tony almost added
a level of aesthetic clutter

1466
01:07:58,030 --> 01:08:00,902
is almost what I call it.
You know, like little pouches,

1467
01:08:00,946 --> 01:08:02,643
little knickknacks
and things kind of like

1468
01:08:02,687 --> 01:08:05,168
squirreled away on figures
or on characters.

1469
01:08:05,211 --> 01:08:08,432
And before that, you know,
you'd get like... like a dwarf

1470
01:08:08,475 --> 01:08:11,217
in a tunic with pants
and with boots.

1471
01:08:11,261 --> 01:08:13,480
Tony comes along
and does his gnome

1472
01:08:13,524 --> 01:08:17,005
with a candelabra headset,
smoking a pipe

1473
01:08:17,049 --> 01:08:20,008
with a crazy pouch
and platform shoes

1474
01:08:20,052 --> 01:08:21,532
and, like,
all this bizarre,

1475
01:08:21,575 --> 01:08:24,926
crazy idiosyncrasies
that make those creatures

1476
01:08:24,970 --> 01:08:27,146
more than creatures; they make
them individuals and characters.

1477
01:08:27,190 --> 01:08:30,715
Everything just worked.
That's--That's--

1478
01:08:30,758 --> 01:08:33,500
That's one of the most wonderful
feelings when you work on--

1479
01:08:33,544 --> 01:08:37,200
on a world and it--

1480
01:08:37,243 --> 01:08:40,899
it turns out the way
you wanted it to

1481
01:08:40,942 --> 01:08:42,944
only it turns out even better.

1482
01:08:42,988 --> 01:08:47,035
I always think back on those
years working on Planescape

1483
01:08:47,079 --> 01:08:50,300
and I always smile because
it was such a great time

1484
01:08:50,343 --> 01:08:52,824
in my life.
And those were great people.

1485
01:08:58,786 --> 01:09:01,528
During my time at TSR,

1486
01:09:01,572 --> 01:09:06,185
it was during Lorraine Williams'
reign, so to speak.

1487
01:09:06,229 --> 01:09:09,362
And she hired--or a lot
of people working for her

1488
01:09:09,406 --> 01:09:12,452
weren't gamers,
who weren't familiar

1489
01:09:12,496 --> 01:09:15,194
with industry, but they had
backgrounds as actual managers.

1490
01:09:15,238 --> 01:09:20,199
Sometimes they made decisions
that were not based on reality.

1491
01:09:20,243 --> 01:09:23,681
Jeff Easley was pegged to do
this very prominent cover

1492
01:09:23,724 --> 01:09:27,206
for a new product and
management wanted to make sure

1493
01:09:27,250 --> 01:09:29,513
it's the best it can be.
So they specified,

1494
01:09:29,556 --> 01:09:33,908
"Jeff, only use
your most expensive colors

1495
01:09:33,952 --> 01:09:37,085
on this painting."
Which is hilarious 'cause, like,

1496
01:09:37,129 --> 01:09:39,000
Rose Madder is
the most expensive paint tube

1497
01:09:39,044 --> 01:09:42,700
so I can imagine if his whole
painting was Rose Madder.

1498
01:09:42,743 --> 01:09:46,138
Another thing that happened
along the similar lines

1499
01:09:46,182 --> 01:09:49,446
is another important project
came along and they said,

1500
01:09:49,489 --> 01:09:52,362
"This project's important.
Make sure you use

1501
01:09:52,405 --> 01:09:55,147
all the colors."
So that just kind of gives you

1502
01:09:55,191 --> 01:09:58,933
an idea of the void
between the understanding

1503
01:09:58,977 --> 01:10:02,328
between management and creatives
especially the painters, at TSR.

1504
01:10:02,372 --> 01:10:05,288
Originally,
we got to keep our art.

1505
01:10:05,331 --> 01:10:08,595
Then somewhere along the way,

1506
01:10:08,639 --> 01:10:11,729
I'd say right around...

1507
01:10:11,772 --> 01:10:15,515
maybe 1980 or so,
um...

1508
01:10:15,559 --> 01:10:19,824
they decided that, "Well,
we should keep the art, TSR."

1509
01:10:19,867 --> 01:10:25,046
And those works
went into a vault

1510
01:10:25,090 --> 01:10:29,094
that was found and opened

1511
01:10:29,137 --> 01:10:31,139
when Wizards purchased TSR.

1512
01:10:31,183 --> 01:10:33,881
Some of the art
got back into the artists hands,

1513
01:10:33,925 --> 01:10:35,448
but some of it didn't.

1514
01:10:35,492 --> 01:10:37,581
In the generations that
we're talking about,

1515
01:10:37,624 --> 01:10:40,061
D&Dart wasn't
a digital piece on a computer.

1516
01:10:40,105 --> 01:10:42,194
It was a real piece of artwork

1517
01:10:42,238 --> 01:10:44,936
and those pieces
were everywhere

1518
01:10:44,979 --> 01:10:47,895
and we're here today
talking about them because

1519
01:10:47,939 --> 01:10:51,203
we love them and we know the
value that these things have.

1520
01:10:51,247 --> 01:10:53,074
But at the time, nobody knew.

1521
01:10:53,118 --> 01:10:54,859
I get this call
from somebody going,

1522
01:10:54,902 --> 01:10:58,950
"Hey, we were cleaning out
the shipping department

1523
01:10:58,993 --> 01:11:00,560
'cause they're getting ready
for some construction."

1524
01:11:00,604 --> 01:11:02,649
Or something
"We found this painting

1525
01:11:02,693 --> 01:11:05,043
behind a big filing cabinet

1526
01:11:05,086 --> 01:11:07,480
and we were thinking
about throwing it away,

1527
01:11:07,524 --> 01:11:09,265
but we figured since it's art,
we should call you up

1528
01:11:09,308 --> 01:11:11,136
and let you know and let--

1529
01:11:11,179 --> 01:11:13,530
you could tell us
what to do with it."

1530
01:11:13,573 --> 01:11:16,576
Then I went down there,
I was like, "Oh, my God,

1531
01:11:16,620 --> 01:11:19,492
this is the original
Trampier cover.

1532
01:11:19,536 --> 01:11:21,625
Oh, what is this doing...?
Why is this here?

1533
01:11:21,668 --> 01:11:24,541
Why is this behind a thing?"
And totally freaked out.

1534
01:11:24,584 --> 01:11:27,108
Realizing that we were, like,
literally moments away

1535
01:11:27,152 --> 01:11:28,806
from this thing
ending up in a dumpster

1536
01:11:28,849 --> 01:11:30,982
because nobody in shipping
had an understanding

1537
01:11:31,025 --> 01:11:32,984
of what it was
and what the importance was

1538
01:11:33,027 --> 01:11:35,508
-to this brand.
-For whatever reason

1539
01:11:35,552 --> 01:11:37,815
that boggles my mind,

1540
01:11:37,858 --> 01:11:42,515
original artwork
somehow was...

1541
01:11:42,559 --> 01:11:44,778
confused for trash.

1542
01:11:44,822 --> 01:11:50,175
They chucked it away in-- It--
At least three batches

1543
01:11:50,218 --> 01:11:54,832
that I know of
and I did not learn about it

1544
01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:57,922
until the last batch
that they were chucking away.

1545
01:11:57,965 --> 01:12:01,404
And I--I was out of my mind.

1546
01:12:01,447 --> 01:12:03,362
I couldn't believe
that they were doing this

1547
01:12:03,406 --> 01:12:05,451
so I grabbed a bunch of that.

1548
01:12:05,495 --> 01:12:09,673
And if it wasn't for the fact
that there were some people

1549
01:12:09,716 --> 01:12:12,980
who happened to be witnessing
at the time

1550
01:12:13,024 --> 01:12:15,766
that this was happening,
that artwork

1551
01:12:15,809 --> 01:12:17,158
never would have been rescued.

1552
01:12:17,202 --> 01:12:20,379
♪

1553
01:12:20,423 --> 01:12:23,382
[Burdett] A really good villain,
a really complex, dynamic,

1554
01:12:23,426 --> 01:12:27,386
not purely evil villain
is so much more interesting

1555
01:12:27,430 --> 01:12:29,780
than a hero no matter
how well he's fleshed out.

1556
01:12:29,823 --> 01:12:32,783
I love fantasy art
because of the monsters.

1557
01:12:32,826 --> 01:12:37,701
D&Dwas the first niche
to fill the monster market

1558
01:12:37,744 --> 01:12:43,707
and give us visual evidence
of what creatures were

1559
01:12:43,750 --> 01:12:45,578
that we might have seen
or wanted to go against.

1560
01:12:45,622 --> 01:12:49,365
Now you can go on Google
and put in a name of something

1561
01:12:49,408 --> 01:12:50,844
and do an image search
and you can get

1562
01:12:50,888 --> 01:12:52,150
a million images
that'll come up,

1563
01:12:52,193 --> 01:12:53,934
but I bet you they're fromD&D.

1564
01:12:53,978 --> 01:12:57,808
[Lockwood] WhatD&D did was,
just by the needs

1565
01:12:57,851 --> 01:13:00,854
of the game, demanded an image
for every monster.

1566
01:13:00,898 --> 01:13:03,857
It became sort of
a compendium or glossary

1567
01:13:03,901 --> 01:13:07,600
of every creature that had ever
populated any fiction

1568
01:13:07,644 --> 01:13:11,299
most of which may have never
been painted.

1569
01:13:11,343 --> 01:13:14,520
There was nothing out there

1570
01:13:14,564 --> 01:13:17,697
for what certain monsters
looked like

1571
01:13:17,741 --> 01:13:20,439
or certain other things,
so you had to go by

1572
01:13:20,483 --> 01:13:21,701
the description.

1573
01:13:21,745 --> 01:13:24,530
We were just making the shit up.
[laughs]

1574
01:13:24,574 --> 01:13:26,880
It's like being an explorer.

1575
01:13:26,924 --> 01:13:29,100
You're the first one
who's gone there

1576
01:13:29,143 --> 01:13:31,624
and you're reporting back
to everyone else

1577
01:13:31,668 --> 01:13:33,409
what that thing looks like.

1578
01:13:33,452 --> 01:13:35,889
So I had to paint a dragon, the
first dragon I ever painted

1579
01:13:35,933 --> 01:13:37,500
when I went to work at TSR.
I'm like,

1580
01:13:37,543 --> 01:13:39,284
"God,
I've gotta paint a dragon."

1581
01:13:39,327 --> 01:13:42,418
I get my encyclopedia out
and I look up dinosaurs

1582
01:13:42,461 --> 01:13:45,725
in one book.
Another book I had reptiles.

1583
01:13:45,769 --> 01:13:47,640
And a lot of people say,
"Well, why you put

1584
01:13:47,684 --> 01:13:49,381
front legs on a dragon?"

1585
01:13:49,425 --> 01:13:50,948
You know, you see a lot
of dragons with the wings

1586
01:13:50,991 --> 01:13:52,732
and the front legs
tied together.

1587
01:13:52,776 --> 01:13:56,040
It's like,
"Well, because TSR said in D&D,

1588
01:13:56,083 --> 01:13:57,781
dragons were very intelligent.

1589
01:13:57,824 --> 01:13:59,913
They could do things,
they could cast spells.

1590
01:13:59,957 --> 01:14:02,481
They need to use the front legs
almost like hands."

1591
01:14:02,525 --> 01:14:05,266
I was always a little
intimidated by dragons, though.

1592
01:14:05,310 --> 01:14:10,533
I hadn't done a lot of dragons
prior to coming to TSR

1593
01:14:10,576 --> 01:14:12,839
and then Dragonlancecame along

1594
01:14:12,883 --> 01:14:15,799
and we kind of changed
the look of the dragons.

1595
01:14:15,842 --> 01:14:18,366
I got to develop
the Black Dragon

1596
01:14:18,410 --> 01:14:20,325
and the Green Dragon.

1597
01:14:20,368 --> 01:14:22,109
You know, I think Larry did
the White Dragon

1598
01:14:22,153 --> 01:14:25,112
and the Blue Dragon
and Jeff did the Red Dragon.

1599
01:14:25,156 --> 01:14:27,724
My version of the dragon
has evolved a little

1600
01:14:27,767 --> 01:14:31,162
over the years and I think that
eventually got to the point

1601
01:14:31,205 --> 01:14:34,382
where physically a lot
of my dragons are kind of

1602
01:14:34,426 --> 01:14:37,690
almost human musculature
in the arms and so forth

1603
01:14:37,734 --> 01:14:40,998
and you can get really
kind of an expressive gesture.

1604
01:14:41,041 --> 01:14:43,696
The way I do the faces
I think oftentimes,

1605
01:14:43,740 --> 01:14:48,005
it's almost caricature approach
in some cases

1606
01:14:48,048 --> 01:14:50,398
with the eyes,
maybe a little bit of a grin

1607
01:14:50,442 --> 01:14:53,184
or just the way
the nose wrinkles up.

1608
01:14:53,227 --> 01:14:55,839
Yeah they're just--
of all the fantasy creatures

1609
01:14:55,882 --> 01:14:57,449
I think they're probably
the most iconic.

1610
01:14:57,493 --> 01:15:01,148
Lockwood really set the bar
recently for kind of

1611
01:15:01,192 --> 01:15:02,672
what's to be expected
of dragons I feel.

1612
01:15:02,715 --> 01:15:05,979
You can't have more fun
for money than designing

1613
01:15:06,023 --> 01:15:07,415
the dragons for D&D.

1614
01:15:07,459 --> 01:15:10,506
Todd just--he really had
a hankering

1615
01:15:10,549 --> 01:15:14,901
to, uh, just redesign them
to make them less humanoid

1616
01:15:14,945 --> 01:15:18,035
in their anatomy
and more feline,

1617
01:15:18,078 --> 01:15:22,430
more bestial
and really gave each one

1618
01:15:22,474 --> 01:15:26,565
its own
really distinct differences.

1619
01:15:26,609 --> 01:15:28,567
[Metheny] Seeing like the Green
Dragon look very different

1620
01:15:28,611 --> 01:15:30,395
from the Black Dragon
look very different from the,

1621
01:15:30,438 --> 01:15:32,919
you know, Blue Dragon
was really inspiring

1622
01:15:32,963 --> 01:15:35,226
because there was
taking into account

1623
01:15:35,269 --> 01:15:37,968
regions and where these dragons
could be found.

1624
01:15:38,011 --> 01:15:41,493
Sam Wood and I worked very,
very closely together

1625
01:15:41,537 --> 01:15:43,321
on the dragons
and traded pictures

1626
01:15:43,364 --> 01:15:45,497
back and forth
and built them up

1627
01:15:45,541 --> 01:15:48,500
from the inside out.
We drew skeletons,

1628
01:15:48,544 --> 01:15:52,765
we drew musculature diagrams
and then we fleshed them out.

1629
01:15:52,809 --> 01:15:55,551
[Metheny] Pulling in a lot
of different textures and colors

1630
01:15:55,594 --> 01:15:57,596
from real world objects
like, you know,

1631
01:15:57,640 --> 01:15:59,772
for this copper dragon he's got
a really nice patina on it,

1632
01:15:59,816 --> 01:16:03,297
but each, again, each dragon
has such a unique head crest

1633
01:16:03,341 --> 01:16:05,561
and look about it
that you can really start

1634
01:16:05,604 --> 01:16:08,607
to appreciate
the culture of each species.

1635
01:16:08,651 --> 01:16:10,653
[Lockwood] Dragons have wings.
They don't swing

1636
01:16:10,696 --> 01:16:13,351
from tree limbs.
They don't need shoulders

1637
01:16:13,394 --> 01:16:14,787
that can brachiate.

1638
01:16:14,831 --> 01:16:17,964
A cat can't do this...

1639
01:16:18,008 --> 01:16:19,879
but a monkey can.

1640
01:16:19,923 --> 01:16:21,707
A dragon doesn't need
to swing from a tree.

1641
01:16:21,751 --> 01:16:24,710
So we gave them limbs
more appropriate to the things

1642
01:16:24,754 --> 01:16:26,190
it would use those limbs for.

1643
01:16:26,233 --> 01:16:27,974
[Babbey] For me
when I'm painting a dragon,

1644
01:16:28,018 --> 01:16:29,715
when I'm approaching
the design aspect of it

1645
01:16:29,759 --> 01:16:31,804
it's almost like
a personality that you have

1646
01:16:31,848 --> 01:16:34,720
to hit, less so than
a physical feature.

1647
01:16:34,764 --> 01:16:36,417
Like, for me,
I'm not aiming for scales

1648
01:16:36,461 --> 01:16:37,941
on my dragon,
that's not important.

1649
01:16:37,984 --> 01:16:40,770
I'm aiming for majesty.
I'm aiming for impact.

1650
01:16:40,813 --> 01:16:42,772
I'm aiming for this powerful
feel to them.

1651
01:16:42,815 --> 01:16:44,643
The Silver Dragon for
Fifth Edition

1652
01:16:44,687 --> 01:16:47,733
was a real treat for me
'cause they're one of my

1653
01:16:47,777 --> 01:16:49,648
favorite dragons inD&D.
I wanted it to be something

1654
01:16:49,692 --> 01:16:51,171
that sort of takes
your breath away a little bit

1655
01:16:51,215 --> 01:16:52,999
when you see
the beauty of this animal

1656
01:16:53,043 --> 01:16:55,262
rather than just a monster. You
know, something with just

1657
01:16:55,306 --> 01:16:58,352
a couple of hit points and
some loot on it to get later.

1658
01:16:58,396 --> 01:17:03,053
When I am designing creatures
I much more prefer

1659
01:17:03,096 --> 01:17:04,881
kind of Earth-bound creatures.

1660
01:17:04,924 --> 01:17:08,406
Like, if it looks more alien,
I actually--I don't like that.

1661
01:17:08,449 --> 01:17:11,801
Because nature looks cool
and really anything that you can

1662
01:17:11,844 --> 01:17:13,498
come up with,
nature's already done it.

1663
01:17:13,541 --> 01:17:16,414
One of the things that--
that is always in the forefront

1664
01:17:16,457 --> 01:17:19,112
of my mind, you know,
outside of the standard art

1665
01:17:19,156 --> 01:17:20,331
stuff of, you know,
"Where's the light source

1666
01:17:20,374 --> 01:17:21,767
coming from?"
And all that

1667
01:17:21,811 --> 01:17:23,508
is "How do
these creatures work?

1668
01:17:23,551 --> 01:17:25,466
Like, how do they interact
with their environments?

1669
01:17:25,510 --> 01:17:27,120
How do they interact
with each other

1670
01:17:27,164 --> 01:17:28,948
and how can I make
that look believable?"

1671
01:17:28,992 --> 01:17:31,777
I am every monster
in all of my work.

1672
01:17:31,821 --> 01:17:34,214
I use this medium in this forum

1673
01:17:34,258 --> 01:17:36,826
to do a series
of self-portraits.

1674
01:17:36,869 --> 01:17:39,655
Root the Goblin
was one of the assignments

1675
01:17:39,698 --> 01:17:41,569
that I had to do for
Halls of Undermountain

1676
01:17:41,613 --> 01:17:44,703
and it was one
of my favorite self portraits

1677
01:17:44,747 --> 01:17:46,574
that I've done
for Dungeons & Dragons

1678
01:17:46,618 --> 01:17:49,447
and I really wanted to get
a really nice piece of reference

1679
01:17:49,490 --> 01:17:52,189
that I was going to use
to help the piece along.

1680
01:17:52,232 --> 01:17:55,366
I just wanted to create
a really happy, excited

1681
01:17:55,409 --> 01:17:57,716
little goblin that wanted
to help the players out

1682
01:17:57,760 --> 01:17:59,457
and he's gonna carry
all their stuff.

1683
01:17:59,500 --> 01:18:03,200
As long as you have 90%
of a truth with a monster

1684
01:18:03,243 --> 01:18:06,072
that ten percent can be
as crazy as weird

1685
01:18:06,116 --> 01:18:08,335
and as much of a lie
as you want and you will create

1686
01:18:08,379 --> 01:18:09,946
something that is believable.

1687
01:18:09,989 --> 01:18:12,470
So, you know, there's the--
the age old answer

1688
01:18:12,513 --> 01:18:13,819
of like,
"Well, how does that work?"

1689
01:18:13,863 --> 01:18:15,342
And it's like,
"Eh, a wizard did it."

1690
01:18:15,386 --> 01:18:16,822
You know, it's like,
"It's magic."

1691
01:18:16,866 --> 01:18:18,650
You can... you can delve
into the realm of magic.

1692
01:18:18,694 --> 01:18:20,783
That's what gets me excited
about making art

1693
01:18:20,826 --> 01:18:23,699
for Dungeons & Dragons
is that I get to create

1694
01:18:23,742 --> 01:18:26,702
something that has
never existed before.

1695
01:18:26,745 --> 01:18:30,575
It's an ogre slingshot

1696
01:18:30,618 --> 01:18:33,317
that's sling-shotting goblins.

1697
01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:35,188
[laughs]

1698
01:18:35,232 --> 01:18:38,757
There has to be some type
of guide who says,

1699
01:18:38,801 --> 01:18:40,454
"All right, sling it."
You know?

1700
01:18:40,498 --> 01:18:43,544
So we have one goblin
in there who's kind of like

1701
01:18:43,588 --> 01:18:46,765
the leader who's saying,
"Sling away!"

1702
01:18:46,809 --> 01:18:49,289
You know?
So then he can yank his chains

1703
01:18:49,333 --> 01:18:52,118
down and sling
this goblin covered in

1704
01:18:52,162 --> 01:18:54,773
spiky armor into an enemy.

1705
01:18:54,817 --> 01:18:58,777
I hope it inspires the gamer
to come up with a scenario

1706
01:18:58,821 --> 01:19:01,606
that he can put his people up
against, to fight this thing.

1707
01:19:01,649 --> 01:19:04,870
The best D&Dmonsters,
I think, are these...

1708
01:19:04,914 --> 01:19:08,047
the ones that have maintained
their uniqueness

1709
01:19:08,091 --> 01:19:09,875
over the years
and that's probably like

1710
01:19:09,919 --> 01:19:12,878
The Beholder and they're
wholly bizarre creatures.

1711
01:19:12,922 --> 01:19:15,446
The Beholder
was just sort of an accident.

1712
01:19:15,489 --> 01:19:17,622
I seem to have gotten
all sorts of credit

1713
01:19:17,665 --> 01:19:20,581
for The Beholder.
And even though I didn't

1714
01:19:20,625 --> 01:19:22,845
think of it.
I mean, Gary probably thought

1715
01:19:22,888 --> 01:19:25,064
the damn thing up,
he just described it to me.

1716
01:19:25,108 --> 01:19:27,240
You know, ten eye stalks
and a big eye

1717
01:19:27,284 --> 01:19:28,807
and it floats in the air.

1718
01:19:28,851 --> 01:19:32,245
If you look at the way
a Beholder looked

1719
01:19:32,289 --> 01:19:35,509
in the very first illustration
like on the cover of Greyhawk

1720
01:19:35,553 --> 01:19:37,816
that is one look
for that creature,

1721
01:19:37,860 --> 01:19:41,428
but if you look at the way
they're being depicted now,

1722
01:19:41,472 --> 01:19:45,171
they've got much bigger mouths
full of much sharper teeth.

1723
01:19:45,215 --> 01:19:48,827
And every place
where the artist feels

1724
01:19:48,871 --> 01:19:51,177
that they can make that
Beholder a little bit cooler

1725
01:19:51,221 --> 01:19:52,657
they're doing it.

1726
01:19:52,700 --> 01:19:54,528
[Lockwood]
Beholders were terrifying.

1727
01:19:54,572 --> 01:19:57,183
That was the monster that
if it didn't turn you to stone,

1728
01:19:57,227 --> 01:20:00,447
it could disintegrate you
or turn your magic off

1729
01:20:00,491 --> 01:20:02,493
or just kill you outright
with a glance.

1730
01:20:02,536 --> 01:20:04,800
So when I got a chance
to redesign The Beholder

1731
01:20:04,843 --> 01:20:08,891
forThird Edition,
I tried to make him more real

1732
01:20:08,934 --> 01:20:10,675
and more visceral and scary.

1733
01:20:10,718 --> 01:20:13,417
And, well, I suppose
maybe I pictured

1734
01:20:13,460 --> 01:20:16,072
a Trampier-like Beholder
or maybe I pictured

1735
01:20:16,115 --> 01:20:18,248
one of the things
that had been done

1736
01:20:18,291 --> 01:20:20,641
shortly before that which was
just kinda a beach ball

1737
01:20:20,685 --> 01:20:22,513
with penises coming out of it.

1738
01:20:22,556 --> 01:20:25,559
And so instead of penises,
they were like slug eyes

1739
01:20:25,603 --> 01:20:28,606
that would stretch out
like a slug's eye and retract.

1740
01:20:28,649 --> 01:20:32,349
There's nothing phallic
about the eye stalks

1741
01:20:32,392 --> 01:20:34,394
on The Beholder
I don't think.

1742
01:20:34,438 --> 01:20:37,354
Those are just eyes stalks.
It's kind of like little animals

1743
01:20:37,397 --> 01:20:39,399
with eye stalks that get up
and look at you.

1744
01:20:39,443 --> 01:20:43,882
He's just got a lot more of
them than most creatures have.

1745
01:20:43,926 --> 01:20:46,885
Uh, if anything was phallic
in anything I did,

1746
01:20:46,929 --> 01:20:49,975
it would have been Snits
because they're just

1747
01:20:50,019 --> 01:20:53,674
a penis and balls... with feet.

1748
01:20:53,718 --> 01:20:55,894
A writer of an adventure
can come up with

1749
01:20:55,938 --> 01:20:58,810
a great idea for a monster,
but if you make it look dumb

1750
01:20:58,854 --> 01:21:01,334
it's not gonna have
the reputation that it deserves

1751
01:21:01,378 --> 01:21:03,597
from the writing.
So it's, uh--

1752
01:21:03,641 --> 01:21:05,251
There's an awesome
responsibility

1753
01:21:05,295 --> 01:21:07,819
-that comes with it.
-[Metheney] There's tons of fear

1754
01:21:07,863 --> 01:21:09,560
messing with those monsters.

1755
01:21:09,603 --> 01:21:11,867
Especially, like,
classic ones because

1756
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:14,695
you don't want
to disappoint the fans.

1757
01:21:14,739 --> 01:21:18,221
[Dee] I don't think the audience
forD&D has had any problem

1758
01:21:18,264 --> 01:21:21,398
with the fact
that some of the depictions

1759
01:21:21,441 --> 01:21:24,227
have changed over time.
It's like everything else

1760
01:21:24,270 --> 01:21:27,621
in a role-playing game.
Even the rules there,

1761
01:21:27,665 --> 01:21:31,756
uh, they're guidelines
only at a certain level.

1762
01:21:31,799 --> 01:21:34,280
I mean, the Game Master
is there so that any time

1763
01:21:34,324 --> 01:21:38,241
the rules fail to do the job,
the Game Master can step in

1764
01:21:38,284 --> 01:21:40,983
and make things work
the way it needs to.

1765
01:21:41,026 --> 01:21:42,767
Same thing goes with the art.

1766
01:21:42,810 --> 01:21:46,945
Here are all the monsters
for D&Dthat we wanna feature

1767
01:21:46,989 --> 01:21:48,947
in Fifth Edition.
These are all the ones

1768
01:21:48,991 --> 01:21:51,471
that are gonna be relevant.
And we went through each one

1769
01:21:51,515 --> 01:21:54,779
and said "Okay, Owlbear."
And then we grab every piece

1770
01:21:54,822 --> 01:21:57,303
of art we've ever shown
of an owl bear

1771
01:21:57,347 --> 01:22:00,828
of the different major styles,
threw 'em up on a board,

1772
01:22:00,872 --> 01:22:02,482
and then went through
this analytical list and said,

1773
01:22:02,526 --> 01:22:04,745
"Okay, this is what works.
This is what doesn't."

1774
01:22:04,789 --> 01:22:06,965
[Prescott] Through all this work
that I've done for the past

1775
01:22:07,009 --> 01:22:08,793
20 some odd years has been...

1776
01:22:08,836 --> 01:22:10,664
there's a certain level
of challenge.

1777
01:22:10,708 --> 01:22:12,797
Like, "How am I gonna
make this ridiculous-sounding

1778
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,582
monster that's a cross between
a bear and an owl?

1779
01:22:15,626 --> 01:22:17,062
How am I gonna
make that look cool?"

1780
01:22:17,106 --> 01:22:18,803
After drawing
thousands of creatures,

1781
01:22:18,846 --> 01:22:20,152
it always comes back to
"They have to have a lot

1782
01:22:20,196 --> 01:22:23,286
of teeth and drool
and there should be some

1783
01:22:23,329 --> 01:22:25,853
spikes somewhere."
Like the easiest way to make

1784
01:22:25,897 --> 01:22:29,031
a creature meaner
is to add more horns or spikes.

1785
01:22:29,074 --> 01:22:32,338
The Carrion Crawler
was a bit of a challenge because

1786
01:22:32,382 --> 01:22:34,819
it's a huge
insectoid-like creature

1787
01:22:34,862 --> 01:22:37,169
that resides in dark places
and eats dead things

1788
01:22:37,213 --> 01:22:38,910
that have
kind of ended up there.

1789
01:22:38,954 --> 01:22:40,738
Of course it kind of
made sense at first

1790
01:22:40,781 --> 01:22:42,958
to maybe have it
have large eyes.

1791
01:22:43,001 --> 01:22:46,004
In my own understanding
of the creature,

1792
01:22:46,048 --> 01:22:48,006
I thought it would be
interesting for it to kind of

1793
01:22:48,050 --> 01:22:51,009
feelaround which the tentacles
that were traditionally drawn

1794
01:22:51,053 --> 01:22:52,793
on the Carrion Crawler
could totally do.

1795
01:22:52,837 --> 01:22:54,143
So that was nice
that those were there.

1796
01:22:54,186 --> 01:22:56,841
So in my final rendition
of the creature

1797
01:22:56,884 --> 01:23:00,279
I've made those tentacles
a lot more whip-like in a way,

1798
01:23:00,323 --> 01:23:02,542
so they're a lot more agile
and kind of able to sort of

1799
01:23:02,586 --> 01:23:04,762
feel around its environment.

1800
01:23:04,805 --> 01:23:07,504
Cool thing about
the Goblinoids

1801
01:23:07,547 --> 01:23:09,854
what was an interesting
challenge was to make them all

1802
01:23:09,897 --> 01:23:12,030
feel like they're kind of
from the same DNA pool.

1803
01:23:12,074 --> 01:23:15,860
They're all structurally
humanoid from the neck down,

1804
01:23:15,903 --> 01:23:19,733
but where their character is
gonna lie, is in their faces.

1805
01:23:19,777 --> 01:23:21,257
I mean,
they all have pointed ears,

1806
01:23:21,300 --> 01:23:22,867
but they're all varying shape.

1807
01:23:22,910 --> 01:23:24,956
For the most part
their noses kind of lock them in

1808
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,872
as being--that's the--
the key the carryover

1809
01:23:27,915 --> 01:23:29,656
that came from that gene pool.

1810
01:23:29,700 --> 01:23:32,355
The character
of the Bugbear is furry,

1811
01:23:32,398 --> 01:23:36,054
animalistic, ferocious.
The Hobgoblin, again,

1812
01:23:36,098 --> 01:23:38,361
the same nose,
kind of the same jaw line,

1813
01:23:38,404 --> 01:23:40,015
but Hobgoblin had to be
more intelligent

1814
01:23:40,058 --> 01:23:42,539
and the Goblinoids--
Hey, look at him.

1815
01:23:42,582 --> 01:23:44,367
He just looks like
he's gonna steal all your stuff

1816
01:23:44,410 --> 01:23:46,760
when you're sleeping.
Probably cut your throat, too.

1817
01:23:46,804 --> 01:23:51,069
♪

1818
01:23:51,113 --> 01:23:53,506
[Diterlizzi] These characters,
these creatures,

1819
01:23:53,550 --> 01:23:56,422
these monsters,
these places are like

1820
01:23:56,466 --> 01:23:59,512
a fairy tale or, like,
folklore or mythology.

1821
01:23:59,556 --> 01:24:03,429
They can be reinterpreted
over and over again

1822
01:24:03,473 --> 01:24:04,865
for each generation.

1823
01:24:04,909 --> 01:24:08,260
And that is incredibly
exciting to see.

1824
01:24:08,304 --> 01:24:11,089
[Gallegos] The evolution of
the art itself is interesting

1825
01:24:11,133 --> 01:24:13,004
and almost from edition
to edition you can kind of

1826
01:24:13,048 --> 01:24:14,745
find a little bit
of a different template,

1827
01:24:14,788 --> 01:24:17,008
a different flavor
of kind of how the art looks.

1828
01:24:17,052 --> 01:24:19,271
And I know withFifth Edition,
that seemed to go back

1829
01:24:19,315 --> 01:24:22,100
to a little bit of that
earlier--the earlier quality.

1830
01:24:22,144 --> 01:24:24,363
[Schindehette] The direction
I'd given to the art directors

1831
01:24:24,407 --> 01:24:26,191
is I want everything
to look like

1832
01:24:26,235 --> 01:24:27,453
it's been done traditionally.

1833
01:24:27,497 --> 01:24:31,066
I want it to have love

1834
01:24:31,109 --> 01:24:32,937
and reverence
for the pages again.

1835
01:24:32,980 --> 01:24:36,027
As Dungeons & Dragons
has moved and evolved,

1836
01:24:36,071 --> 01:24:38,203
I feel like there has been
a conscious effort

1837
01:24:38,247 --> 01:24:41,598
for the game players
and the game designers

1838
01:24:41,641 --> 01:24:45,428
to become more aware
of the people playing

1839
01:24:45,471 --> 01:24:49,606
their games and very conscious
in including them

1840
01:24:49,649 --> 01:24:52,087
and depicting
people that look like them.

1841
01:24:52,130 --> 01:24:54,611
Fantasy in general
suffers from being

1842
01:24:54,654 --> 01:24:58,310
very European
and there are so many more

1843
01:24:58,354 --> 01:25:02,923
amazing cultures and stories
and worlds out there

1844
01:25:02,967 --> 01:25:05,491
that I think are starting
to kind of penetrate

1845
01:25:05,535 --> 01:25:08,015
into fantasy realms.

1846
01:25:08,059 --> 01:25:11,280
One of the things that the
Fifth Edition Players Handbook

1847
01:25:11,323 --> 01:25:13,978
has received a lot of positive
acclaim around

1848
01:25:14,021 --> 01:25:18,113
is this idea that
it's--it's kind of gotten away

1849
01:25:18,156 --> 01:25:20,027
from some of the design tropes.

1850
01:25:20,071 --> 01:25:23,074
A really good example
of this, I think, is this.

1851
01:25:23,118 --> 01:25:24,684
The entry for the human race.

1852
01:25:24,728 --> 01:25:28,775
We have a woman of color
in really effective armor.

1853
01:25:28,819 --> 01:25:30,821
[Metheney]
People of all genders, races,

1854
01:25:30,864 --> 01:25:32,779
everything have always been
playingDungeons & Dragons.

1855
01:25:32,823 --> 01:25:35,130
It's who we start
to feature more.

1856
01:25:35,173 --> 01:25:37,567
When we got the descriptions,
they were very adamant.

1857
01:25:37,610 --> 01:25:41,266
They were like, "Try not to make
it like a white blonde guy."

1858
01:25:41,310 --> 01:25:43,529
Like,
"Please, we love 'em,

1859
01:25:43,573 --> 01:25:45,662
but there's, like,
500 million of them."

1860
01:25:45,705 --> 01:25:48,882
The diversity that the
characters need to have

1861
01:25:48,926 --> 01:25:51,015
needs to reflect
the gaming world now.

1862
01:25:51,058 --> 01:25:54,758
The mix of people
that are playing these games,

1863
01:25:54,801 --> 01:25:56,760
you know,
it's not the, you know,

1864
01:25:56,803 --> 01:26:00,372
13-year-old white boys
held up in their basements.

1865
01:26:00,416 --> 01:26:03,375
It's a very diverse crowd.

1866
01:26:03,419 --> 01:26:07,162
You know, males and females,
all nationalities.

1867
01:26:07,205 --> 01:26:09,076
So, you know,
this was a great opportunity

1868
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:10,556
to mix that up a little bit.

1869
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:13,298
[Pages] Really thinking
about the people

1870
01:26:13,342 --> 01:26:15,996
that are reading these books

1871
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:17,868
and, like,
understanding this media

1872
01:26:17,911 --> 01:26:21,393
and having them see themselves
portrayed in that,

1873
01:26:21,437 --> 01:26:26,093
gives a lot of hope
that fantasy can be

1874
01:26:26,137 --> 01:26:27,660
a genre for everyone.

1875
01:26:27,704 --> 01:26:32,578
♪

1876
01:26:32,622 --> 01:26:36,234
Dungeons & Dragonsart
is important

1877
01:26:36,278 --> 01:26:41,239
because it has had
a tremendous impact

1878
01:26:41,283 --> 01:26:46,549
on both the imaginative art
consuming public

1879
01:26:46,592 --> 01:26:48,942
as well as the artists
who are producing it.

1880
01:26:48,986 --> 01:26:53,338
WithoutD&D,
just eliminating that game,

1881
01:26:53,382 --> 01:26:55,558
eliminating all of that work,

1882
01:26:55,601 --> 01:26:57,908
the landscape would look
very, very different.

1883
01:26:57,951 --> 01:27:01,390
There would not be
the expectation

1884
01:27:01,433 --> 01:27:04,871
for this kind of art
and of this kind of art

1885
01:27:04,915 --> 01:27:09,659
that you see today in things
like video games orMagic.

1886
01:27:09,702 --> 01:27:11,922
[Taylor] I don't think
it's been everything,

1887
01:27:11,965 --> 01:27:15,099
but if you look
at who's creating these mediums

1888
01:27:15,142 --> 01:27:16,883
I bet you...

1889
01:27:16,927 --> 01:27:18,581
that a high percentage of them
areD&D players.

1890
01:27:18,624 --> 01:27:23,107
The artwork has solidified
a place in common culture

1891
01:27:23,150 --> 01:27:26,763
that somehow speaks
to the nature of adventure.

1892
01:27:26,806 --> 01:27:30,984
We've closed all our frontiers,
but not in Dungeons & Dragons.

1893
01:27:31,028 --> 01:27:33,944
At the time
I don't think any of us

1894
01:27:33,987 --> 01:27:38,035
really grasped

1895
01:27:38,078 --> 01:27:41,299
what a big deal this all was.

1896
01:27:41,343 --> 01:27:44,650
I was way too busy

1897
01:27:44,694 --> 01:27:47,958
feeling how lucky I was

1898
01:27:48,001 --> 01:27:51,918
to have the opportunity
to do the kinds of art

1899
01:27:51,962 --> 01:27:53,572
that I wanted to do.

1900
01:27:53,616 --> 01:27:55,357
That was what
I was thinking about,

1901
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:58,708
not, "Hey, 40 years from now

1902
01:27:58,751 --> 01:28:01,363
there'll be people looking back
on this and thinking

1903
01:28:01,406 --> 01:28:04,931
-of it as historical.
-God, it is 40--No, it's 30.

1904
01:28:04,975 --> 01:28:06,759
No! It's 40 years!

1905
01:28:06,803 --> 01:28:09,545
I had to do the math.
That's crazy!

1906
01:28:09,588 --> 01:28:11,590
It's exciting
to be part of this

1907
01:28:11,634 --> 01:28:13,897
big universe
that everyone knows

1908
01:28:13,940 --> 01:28:15,899
and everyone's been enjoying
for 40 years.

1909
01:28:15,942 --> 01:28:18,249
It's not kind of exciting,
it's really exciting.

1910
01:28:18,293 --> 01:28:19,859
[Seaman]
It's a dream come true.

1911
01:28:19,903 --> 01:28:23,646
It's something that I never
thought I would be here.

1912
01:28:23,689 --> 01:28:26,126
[Lockwood] It was
a springboard for my career

1913
01:28:26,170 --> 01:28:29,956
when what I really was looking
for was a lifeline.

1914
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:31,567
It turned out to be
so much more.

1915
01:28:31,610 --> 01:28:34,352
I certainly do realize
how lucky I am to have been

1916
01:28:34,396 --> 01:28:36,049
in the right place
at the right time

1917
01:28:36,093 --> 01:28:38,008
and, you know,
forge a little bit of

1918
01:28:38,051 --> 01:28:41,054
the history of the TSR
roleplaying universe.

1919
01:28:41,098 --> 01:28:44,188
[Metheney] I think it's a legacy
and it's humbling.

1920
01:28:44,231 --> 01:28:47,322
Seeing the work that was done
way back with TSR

1921
01:28:47,365 --> 01:28:50,020
and then work that's being done
now and in the future,

1922
01:28:50,063 --> 01:28:52,152
it's only gonna get better
and better and better.

1923
01:28:52,196 --> 01:28:54,285
[Babbey]
Being able to contribute

1924
01:28:54,329 --> 01:28:56,331
to so many people's experience.

1925
01:28:56,374 --> 01:28:58,855
You know,
you're contributing not just

1926
01:28:58,898 --> 01:29:00,683
to a book that's going to sit
on the bookshelf.

1927
01:29:00,726 --> 01:29:02,293
For me,
I'm contributing to somebody's

1928
01:29:02,337 --> 01:29:03,816
imaginative experience.

1929
01:29:03,860 --> 01:29:08,255
Dungeons & Dragons
is about imagination.

1930
01:29:08,299 --> 01:29:10,693
It's about storytelling.

1931
01:29:10,736 --> 01:29:14,436
It's about
creating something together.

1932
01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:18,962
And these depictions,
these drawings of characters

1933
01:29:19,005 --> 01:29:22,139
that someone draws
on their player character sheet

1934
01:29:22,182 --> 01:29:25,838
or that aMonster Manual shows
us what we're going to fight

1935
01:29:25,882 --> 01:29:28,885
or a module shows us
the room we're about to enter.

1936
01:29:28,928 --> 01:29:31,931
These are all parts
of that narrative.

1937
01:29:31,975 --> 01:29:36,719
They're all pieces that fuel
our collective imagination.

1938
01:29:36,762 --> 01:29:39,722
And I'm very,
very honored and thankful

1939
01:29:39,765 --> 01:29:41,201
that I got to be
a part of that.

1940
01:29:41,245 --> 01:29:44,683
I'm happy that my art

1941
01:29:44,727 --> 01:29:48,121
got to pull people
into a game or a book

1942
01:29:48,165 --> 01:29:51,690
that made them happy.
I don't feel famous. [chuckles]

1943
01:29:51,734 --> 01:29:55,433
I don't feel anything.
I just feel lucky.

1944
01:29:55,477 --> 01:29:57,870
I'm still learning
and I'm still trying to get...

1945
01:29:57,914 --> 01:30:01,265
one painting right, you know?
[chuckles]

1946
01:30:03,354 --> 01:30:09,316
♪